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Re: Elephants & tigers & hens & other Tory targets
Nov 15, 2010, 19:29
Howburn Digger wrote:
vivid wrote:
Howburn Digger wrote:
GLADMAN wrote:
We can just keep plugging away.... teach your children to love animals BUT in a worldly-wise manner. If a fox was destroying a farmer's poultry farm is he justified in shooting it? Perhaps. But I'd defend the fox to my last breath against a tally ho hunt for nothing other than 'sport'. Bastards. Buy free range eggs and apply pressure to supermarkets to only source from farms that do things right. Money makes people sit up and listen. Is vegetarianism the answer? For some, perhaps, yes. But natural evolution has provided me with processing and digestive systems (incisor teeth, one stomach etc) to live on a mixed diet and I do not have the arrogance to decide I know best and millions of years of nature devising the 'best fit' is wrong.


I live on a farm. I have seen what a fox does to a field of new lambs or a paddock of hens. A frenzy of slaughter and carnage. Foxes are difficult to shoot and they often escape wounded to die slow deaths.
There never was "tally ho" sport hunting of the fox in my part of Scotland but a farmer, a couple of dogs and a gun kept the lid on foxy problems. The problem came when those couple of farmer's dogs got included in the ban of horsey toffs "pack hunting" of the fox by New Labour - who hated the countryside and everyone who lived and worked there.


And I have seen dying lambs chucked on the muck heap for being 'runts', several live sheep with their rear ends being eaten away due to maggot infestations, calves smashed over the head with metal buckets for not 'drinking downwards' when their three day old instincts told them to 'suck upwards'. ALL unnecessary. (And I've worked on a dozen or more farms as the farm I worked at ran a relief service.)

Also, where you get the idea from that everyone who lives in the countryside is aware of what actually happens to animals - wild or farmed -I do not know. Plus the assumption that country dwellers automatically agree with hunting, animal farming etc. They aren't and they don't.

From my experience it seems to have little to do with town, country or political persuasion. I have met Labour Party Young Socialists who were vocal (and angry) in their opposition to people 'caring about animals' when humans were in need of support, conversely a neo-nazi vegan (honest), i.e., (often extreme) left AND right wing people who can be either/or and do not fit into the lefty-townie-anti-hunting box.

I do not know you and am not suggesting that you are personally cruel to animals by the way but would be interested to hear how important you feel animal welfare is to most farmers. I believe that the chief concern for farmers is money to be made from the animals and animal welfare comes second.

I think simple (though probably expensive) measures could easily be put in place to lessen farm animals' distress caused by the transportation to slaughterhouses and think something should be put in place for animals to at least be slaughtered in situ. for example.

etc.


I didn't say that "everyone who lives in the countryside is aware of what actually happens to animals - wild or farmed ". I dont have that idea and it is your imagination which says I do.
Nor did I assume "that country dwellers automatically agree with hunting, animal farming etc." I don't assume that, I don't believe it and I didn't say it. That again came directly from your own imagination.
Perhaps a more careful reading of my original post will allow you to understand that.

It is blindingly obvious that farmers have to make their livestock "pay their way" or the farmer will go out of business. The best way to get the best price for your livestock is to take care of your animals so that you can command the best prices. The farm I live on is an organic farm with barley, cattle and sheep. The farmer works 24/7 (as do his family) year round taking care of their animals. During lambing it really is a 24 hour a day job, vets come at all times of day and night when required. Farmers meet up usually weekly at market and are continually visiting each other, borrowing tractors, bales etc Any farmer I know would never treat his sheep or cattle in the way you describe and would be angered and horrified to see any neighbour do so. They care deeply about their animals.
I hope you took the correct steps and reported the horrific animal welfare issues that you saw to the relevant authorities straight away.
It was a huge pity when our local abbatoir was shut down and the sheep are now transported to Lockerbie. It is more distressing for the animals and increases the costs and the carbon footprint on everyone. Every local farmer I have spoken to would agree.


Okay HD - this is obviously an emotive subject for me and you too I would imagine, but I'd like to be civil nonetheless. Firstly I apologise if I misinterpreted your earlier post, but your final paragraph seemed to me to contain the oft spouted 'townies don't understand the ways of the countryside' message. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

We are never going to be in total agreement with regard to livestock farming. I believe that somewhere in the chain of a farm animal's life it suffers distress and pain, no matter how kind and considerate a farmer may be. You acknowledge (thanks) that the animals experience distress due to transportation and it's a shame that this cannot be outlawed as it causes suffering which is unnecessary. Do you think farmers in general care enough about this to help to initiate change? Wouldn't that be a breakthrough if livestock farmers and animal rights campaigners could co-operate and improve the animals' conditions?!

I do appreciate much of this is dictated by economics. Ideally for me there would be no abbatoirs, but the next best thing would be a small abbatoir in every village, eradicating the need for any wagons. But I would imagine this would greatly increase the price of the meat which would end up in the shops and would have a knock-on effect, where cheaper meat from abroad (where animal welfare concerns may be of little importance) would be sourced instead and UK farmers put out of business. I'd be genuinely interested to hear your views about what you think the cost difference would be if thousands of tiny abbatoirs replaced the big hellish ones that are here now. (Emotive language I know but to me they are hellish.)

With regard to your comments about it not paying to neglect animals as less profit will be made from them, well, yes - to a great extent I'm sure. But there are many (not so thin) lines where enough profit can still be made even if an animal is experiencing some discomfort or pain due to neglect, i.e., the condition will not affect the profit margin adversely, whereas a vet bill would. I have in mind an older cow who was a good milker but had very long hooves and used to walk with some difficulty. The hooves did not affect the milk yield.

Also, no matter how kind and conscientious a farmer may be, does s/he know about other farm workers, transport and abbatoir workers etc.? The truth is there to see on Youtube for starters, animals being kicked in abbatoirs as well as footage showing the stunning technique not being done properly with the obvious consequences. A fella down my street used to work in a local chicken factory and told me how the workers 'played football' with the live hens. These things go on.

Anyway, HD, I've rattled on enough for now. Genuine apologies for any misunderstandings.
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Re: Elephants & tigers & hens & other Tory targets (Howburn Digger)		 Replies:
Re: Elephants & tigers & hens & other Tory targets (Howburn Digger)
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