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handofdave
handofdave
3515 posts

Edited Oct 04, 2008, 16:24
Re: VP debates
Oct 04, 2008, 16:12
The Democrats here, Labour there, sort of the same animal. Not perfect, in many regards not different enuf from the Republicans/Tories.

But the former are far more sympathetic to the left than the latter, so strategically, it makes sense to elect a government that actually CAN get elected in a nationwide contest and hammer in that piton, so to speak; Securing a place from which to move forward.

Now, I do see the danger that some will perceive a Dem/Labour win as being GOOD ENOUGH. And I do see the danger that some will defend those status quo concessions that their party makes with the corporations out of loyalty.

People will defend all sorts of things that go against their best interests out of loyalty... it's a kind of enabling on a mass scale. Republicans are ostensibly Conservatives, but under Bush they've really been right wing liberals. And Clinton wasn't exactly the most left wing guy in town, yet he still retains that Elvis-like celebrity status with so many Democrats.

Without enough momentum, and populist support, and dire need, for that matter, the kind of emergency downshifting that Jim proposes won't happen under Democratic governments. To suggest that perhaps we should be abandoning Democracy to save the planet, tho... well, who's going to go for that? Do leftists want to live under a totalitarian government? Some, perhaps, but then again I imagine they've got overly optimistic visions in their heads that somehow everyone will obey and be rewarded with a neo-Eden. I just don't see it. When you give a government all-encompassing power to relocate, disarm, detain, ration, draft into service, tax, impound, and in general control absolutely the lives of the public, you invite revolution. So I'm not sure how, to nations that already enjoy democracy, you can have a revolution to create a system that ultimately demands another revolution to depose!

Those countries that embraced Marxism did so from positions of revolt against tyrannical dictatorships, monarchies, etc. I don't think there's one single example of a nation that went from (a genuine) Democracy to Communism, tho I'd be happy to stand corrected on that. There have been Democracies that've devolved or been hijacked by Totalitarianism... but I can't think of a single example of a totalitarian state that gives a shit about the environment, so we're back to square one again.

No, there is no quick solution to saving the planet that doesn't involve invading the private lives of almost everyone by an authority.

Ironically, it's nations like China that has the already existing authoritarianism to prosecute such austerity plans, as they have in the past. But as we've seen, the Chinese have finally embraced capitalism's money, and the only cleaning up they're doing is monetary.

The public perception IS GROWING, tho (not fast enuf for Jim's prognosis, but it is) that everyone can do more to prevent this slide into ruin. There are many examples of 'status quo' behaviors and attitudes that have been turned around by crusaders for civil rights, smoking cessation, and now, clean energy and sustainability.

Even some right wing types are catching on to the need for change, or at least they're giving it lip service. If THEY can finally get over their macho energy posture and start to talk about conservation and sustainability, that can't be anything but a step forward.
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