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Jesus I despise Brexit.
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grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Nov 25, 2018, 19:15
Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Nov 25, 2018, 19:14
Captain Starlet wrote:
We're fucked...


Maybe. But I don't think so.

I still don't know the mechanism by which it will happen, but I increasingly feel brexit won't actually happen. The Gibraltar issue is yet another nail in the coffin of this absurd act of national humiliation and self-harm.

I think there's now a solid majority in the UK who understand that a "no deal" brexit would be genuinely catastrophic, and that the only deals acceptable to Europe are substantially worse for the UK than the position it enjoys right now within the EU. The deal on offer is not as bad as "no deal", true, but it's still pretty dreadful compared to the current situation.

How this realisation manifests as concrete action to stop brexit? No idea whatsoever. But you guys now have 4 months to work it out.
nigelswift
8067 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Nov 25, 2018, 20:01
I wish I was confident that the apparent 56% remainers would win a second ref but I'm not. Simplistic punchlines and dog whistling will probably win and we've all seen May doing both today. No more immigrants, no more immigrants and the British just want to get on with it .... no they don't you bloody barefaced liar, not the thinking ones.
nigelswift
8067 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Nov 25, 2018, 20:02
I wish I was confident that the apparent 56% remainers would win a second ref but I'm not. Simplistic punchlines and dog whistling will probably win and we've all seen May doing both today. No more immigrants, no more immigrants and the British just want to get on with it .... no they don't you bloody barefaced liar, not the thinking ones.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1095 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Nov 25, 2018, 20:44
I really want that to happen, unfortunately we've got a PM who seems to either believe she's doing a good job or she's doing this on purpose, or maybe a mix of the two.

Sadly here in Wales we've got the worst attempt of a govt I've ever witnessed, the govt who actually gave powers back to westminster! Who the hell does that!! So although the uk may not be fucked, Wales certainly is if we leave the EU.

I'm interested in that Banks case, I think that's the one to keep an eye open for over the next month or so.

Old Michael Barnier's done quite well out of it though
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Nov 26, 2018, 00:36
Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Nov 26, 2018, 00:32
Captain Starlet wrote:
I really want that to happen, unfortunately we've got a PM who seems to either believe she's doing a good job or she's doing this on purpose, or maybe a mix of the two.

Things can change very quickly. Right now, it does not look like May is going to get the Withdrawal Agreement through parliament. If that gets voted down then all bets are off -- in terms of May's leadership, the tory government, and brexit itself.

I don't know for sure what happens then. Anyone who says they do is deluded IMO. But I wouldn't bet against an election, a referendum, or both.

Captain Starlet wrote:
Sadly here in Wales we've got the worst attempt of a govt I've ever witnessed, the govt who actually gave powers back to westminster! Who the hell does that!! So although the uk may not be fucked, Wales certainly is if we leave the EU.

You may have the second worst attempt of government. But I think when you look at the building that has been lying empty at Stormont for the past 18 months, you probably can't claim "the worst" right now. The people of Northern Ireland -- across the entire political spectrum -- have been badly let down by the suspension of devolved government. If I lived north of the border I'd be bloody furious with the lot of them.

But Wales made a rod for its own back when it voted Leave. It lost (what some might see as) the moral high-ground that the Scots and Northern Irish can choose to occupy when discussing brexit.

I don't think this means a Welsh remainer has any less right to complain about this idiocy than a Scottish or Irish or English one (genuinely, that's not what I'm saying). But it makes it tough for Wales to argue for any kind of special status for the country *within* brexit (in the way the Northern Irish or Scottish may) and it means Welsh objections will carry less weight (in the eyes of the "Will of The People" lot).

There's a bewildering article in the Irish Times where a journalist walks around Holyhead (a town that is hugely dependent upon the port but which voted leave by a large margin). Apparently there's a whole bunch of people in Holyhead who think the town is going to become a thriving fishing community once the UK is out of the EU. It won't. But so long as people (all over the UK -- this isn't just Wales I'm talking about) buy into the lies that were told... then, even if/when brexit is cancelled, there's going to be a lot of anger and resentment.


Captain Starlet wrote:
I'm interested in that Banks case, I think that's the one to keep an eye open for over the next month or so.

It's interesting, but I think it's a red-herring in terms of preventing brexit. It makes the argument in favour of a second referendum much easier to make in the court of public opinion; so it's important in that sense I suppose. But because the referendum was technically only "advisory", apparently there's no legal mechanism to overturn the result -- no matter what any campaigner is later found guilty of.

I'm not a legal bod myself; so obviously do your own research on that one; but it's how it was explained by some legal expert on a radio show I heard.

(impeccable sourcing! ;-)

Captain Starlet wrote:
Old Michael Barnier's done quite well out of it though

When the UK unilaterally voted to leave, the EU had no choice but to appoint someone to handle the process from their end. This whole thing was never in the EU's interests, but the moment it was forced upon us, it became incumbent upon the EU's negotiator to secure the best deal possible for the remaining 27 members. I think he's done a very good job under near impossible circumstances and with only a tiny fraction of the ill-feeling and rancour that he faced across the table.

Did he do a flawless job? Did he turn brexit into a positive process? Nobody could have. And over the course of two years, with UK tabloids (and bizarrely, the BBC) turned rabid, and straining at the leash to twist his every comment into some kind of weaponised propaganda, I'd suggest he made remarkably few mis-steps.

Just as with Leo Varadkar here in Ireland (a man whose policies I oppose on almost every matter), on brexit I have to commend Barnier (and Donald Tusk) for probably doing as well as anyone could have done with the shitty situation they found themselves dealing with.

All just IMO of course.
nigelswift
8067 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Nov 26, 2018, 07:00
Someone on Twitter said it better about Theresa's racist dogwhistling:

Monique Hawkins Retweeted Theresa May

What I find even more gutwrenchingly offensive than:
"we will end free movement"
is the addition:
"once and for all"
A phrase usually reserved for extreme dangers, evils, diseases etc.
Shame, shame, shame on you, Prime Minister.
PS Free movement is RECIPROCAL.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1095 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Nov 26, 2018, 15:57
I'm not having a go at Barnier, yeah someone had to do it and he's done well out of it in terms of future prospects. Kudos to him I say on that one. Hardly a task anyone really wanted.

I don't know much about NI political situation to be honest, have enough here to contend with. There's an odd political situation in Wales in that all the political parties have somehow taken a bit of a shift to the right. Plaid are labour, labour are tories, tories are ukip and probably best not mention what ukip are! But with Wales voting leave, I was still very surprised in some ways but not others. I was surprised that so many people could be either hoodwinked or ignorant of the situation, and many still aren't. In other ways I'm not surprised as there was virtually no campaign for remain, but a whole load for leave, including a lot of public events led by farage and johnson.

However, still can't get my head round the labour Welsh govt handing powers back to Westminster, even Corbyn said it was a power grab, but no they didn't want to listen. One reason for that though is Welsh labour absolutely hate corbyn.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6103 posts

What fresh Hell is this?
Nov 26, 2018, 19:38
Just when you think the depths of the dystopian hell that is Britain 2018 have been sufficiently plumbed, the Bank of England announces that the Evil Queen is a potential candidate to appear on a 50 quid note.

The only relief is that at least they haven't yet reanimated her corpse to take over as eternal dictator, but given the current dearth of political talent on both sides of the House, maybe that day is getting closer.
Amil04
447 posts

Re: What fresh Hell is this?
Nov 26, 2018, 19:49
I’ve not seen a fifty for ages..mores the pity..long make it continue if that happens.

I sometimes wonder if Brexit was the right question...but it’s the one we’ve all been forced to answer..being presented as a choice.

Just thinkin’ aloud.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6103 posts

Re: What fresh Hell is this?
Nov 26, 2018, 20:12
Amil04 wrote:
I’ve not seen a fifty for ages..mores the pity..long make it continue if that happens.


Me neither.

Amil04 wrote:
I sometimes wonder if Brexit was the right question...but it’s the one we’ve all been forced to answer..being presented as a choice.

Just thinkin’ aloud.


It was never the right question, since the motivation for even asking it was a coward of a PM worried that the mean ol' Kippers were going to take seats off him, back in the days before they hired the likes of racist codpiece "Tommy" as a special advisor on whether petty criminals get enough TV privileges and made themselves completely beyond parody.

But as you say, it's the one we've been asked. Fuck knows why anyone would think a referendum was a good idea to decide anything important, but there we are.

My own take on where we are now, fwiw, is that the EU have played it straight, despite the last minute cock-waving of Spain over Gibraltar and Macron's fishy threats, whereas our "negotiating team" has been led by a lazy idiot who showed arrogance and contempt for well over a year of doing nothing, before bailing out once he realised he had no idea what he was doing. Followed by another one who basically also did nothing as May had taken over by then in truth.

To be fair to May, the deal is probably not a bad effort in damage limitation, given that it was obvious to all but the ideologically blinded right from the off that no negotiated deal would be as good as staying in the EU.

Much as I dislike the idea of "going back to the country" to ask The People again, it does seem that the only sensible way to determine the way forward now is a second vote on either staying in, taking the deal, or leaving with no deal. Although if that last option was to be included it would need some more fleshing out otherwise there will be those that can paint it to the gullible as an attractive option (knowing damn well that only the Moggish disaster capitalists would actually stand to gain from it).

The reality is that two and half years on, we still haven't had a single coherent answer to the question of how we will be better off or what the advantages are if we leave, other than May's latest rhetoric reinstating the queue-jumping foreigners as the main evil to be "ended once and for all".
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