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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Edited Sep 25, 2008, 19:26
Sep 25, 2008, 19:22
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I recently overheard a conversation (between two 40-something music snobs) about this album having once been considered a "room clearer" (put it on at the end of the party to make everyone leave), although one every hipster had to have in their collection (just like "White Light/White Heat" once upon a time.) But (sez snob #1 to snob #2), for some reason nowadays people actually LISTEN TO and LIKE this sort of music (shudder!) (Said folk also think Morrissey is da bomb and "you'd have to be on acid" to listen to The Fiery Furnaces.) I think that sort of rings true -- Metal Box has gotten "more seminal" over the years in a way that records like "Entertainment!" or "Chairs Missing" haven't (though those are in some ways equally "great".) Personally, I think Metal Box is head and shoulders above everything else PIL ever did (though I still like the Sex Pistols album even better.) First LP and Flowers of Romance are good/interesting, but not "great." The "Generic Album" is a pretty enjoyable listen -- didja know Ginger Baker plays on it?! And Riyuchi Sakamoto, Nicky Skopelitis, Malachi Favors, and even Tony-fekkin-Williams from the Miles Davis band!
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vince 1628 posts |
Sep 25, 2008, 20:47
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Dog 3000 wrote: The "Generic Album" is a pretty enjoyable listen -- didja know Ginger Baker plays on it?! And Riyuchi Sakamoto, Nicky Skopelitis, Malachi Favors, and even Tony-fekkin-Williams from the Miles Davis band! And Steve Vai if i'm not mistaken. It's all very well calling Lydon "lucky" for managing to be in bands with forwardthinking musicians...but it's more than that. It takes a ceratin character to be able to bring people - in many cases, quite unsocial folk - together, and even more so to bring those rampant egos into line enough to create something not just coherent but inspiring. I think there's more to it than luck.
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keith a 9576 posts |
Sep 25, 2008, 23:21
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Absolutely. And I can't think of a time when MB hasn't been thought of as seminal. In certain circles anyway! I like Lydon's lyrics, too. I'm not saying I listen closely to them or anything, but it sure is a fab moment when he starts going on about cheap Japanese cars. The Flowers Of Romance LP mightn't be in the same class overall, but it's still damn good. The title track is one of the best singles of its time. And Banging The Door is awesome.
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Sep 26, 2008, 04:53
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(Yes, but I figured mentioning Steve Vai would not be considered a point in it's favor among most folk around here!)
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Sep 26, 2008, 07:41
Sep 26, 2008, 07:29
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Dog 3000 wrote: (Yes, but I figured mentioning Steve Vai would not be considered a point in it's favor among most folk around here!) Steve Vai seems to be an honest guy. He does what he does. He doesn't change his tatstes to fit the prevailing critical tides. I don't believe Lydon is or was ever a true musical artist. To my mind a true musical artist is driven inexorably to create music whether the stuff they are coming up with is solid gold or pure shit. An artist would have come up with some original music in the last 19 years and if he could find musicial partners as good as Wobble & Levine or John McGeoch & Bruce Smith then he might well again. Point being that he needs an exceptional framework to make anything work. He's a great front man, an exceptionally talented shape thrower, a man who took the industry by the tail and chucked it around for a year or two, someone who understood what was required of him, soaked up all the influences and lived it to the tee. He's someone who changed how we look at the world and a Rock Star in the truest sense? All absolutely true but that does not make him an arist. That's what I mean by "lucky". It's not a negative it's just a fact that he lucked out to have been in three great bands in the exact same way that Geoff Hurst was "lucky" that Jimmy Greaves got injured in 1966. Doesn't take anything away from him but it points up both the disposable genius and the fatal weakness of rock and roll. It's glory is fleeting for all but a very few because only a very few have anything worthwhile to say for more than a very limited period of time. Five years, three albums. That's about the limit for 99% of even the really good bands.
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earthlingfred93 1115 posts |
Sep 26, 2008, 09:14
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I agree, To be involved in two of the most groundbreaking albums in rock history within 2 years does indeed hold a bit of luck (the moon was aligned with whatever planet etc), but I also intend to agree with other comments. Would the album have been the same without Lydon's alien wail?. Yes he is not musically inclined but his voice comes from the very soul of primal rock n roll holler. Also, like mentioned earlier it takes some kind of fucked up miscreant to attract the same like minded souls, who would have probably not been given the chance without Lydon's friendship & then current clout within the music industry. I think there's a bit of truth in everyone's personal judgement on this topic, but I think we can all agree it is an historical album..... It's interesting to know how far backwards the music industry has gone in terms of backing groundbreaking artists. To think that this album was released on virgin in 79 and that Branson no matter what people think of him released some seminal albums of the 70's, just goes to show how the major label music industry today is just a pallid limp wristed piece of shit of it's former self along with those fucking mags like MOJO, NME etc...
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keith a 9576 posts |
Sep 26, 2008, 10:42
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IanB wrote: That's what I mean by "lucky". It's not a negative it's just a fact that he lucked out to have been in three great bands in the exact same way that Geoff Hurst was "lucky" that Jimmy Greaves got injured in 1966. Doesn't take anything away from him but it points up both the disposable genius and the fatal weakness of rock and roll. It's glory is fleeting for all but a very few because only a very few have anything worthwhile to say for more than a very limited period of time. Five years, three albums. That's about the limit for 99% of even the really good bands. I know you like a good analogy, Ian. And I like most of them, but this one doesn't work at all. Lydon didn't get lucky and fit into a winning team. That would be like Howard Devoto getting injured after Real Life and Johnny stepping in with a musical hat-track of 2nd Hand Daylight, Correct Use Of Soap and MM&TW (not suer if that one actually crossed the line though!). If anything JL was the Sir Alf who put his winning team, PIL, together. Does this make Album his Mexico '70 - quarter finalists who should have done better? ; )
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elegant chaos 2390 posts |
Sep 26, 2008, 11:08
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No Mexico 70 were a pop/indie band in the late eighties fronted by Mick Bund (formerly of Felt) ;-) Lydon has produced some blistering lyrics, and is one of the great interpreters Bit like when the rest of REM teamed up with Warren Zevon for the Hindu Love Gods project - as great as Zevon was, the dynamic without Michael Stipe was diluted - and I also believe that Lydon can provide a sililar level of dynamic on a good day I hasten to add though - that even he - and John McGeoch (RIP) couldn't save PIL's "9" album.....
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elegant chaos 2390 posts |
Sep 26, 2008, 11:09
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oh yes - re MM & TW - that should have been disallowed.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Sep 26, 2008, 12:53
Sep 26, 2008, 12:35
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keith a wrote: IanB wrote: That's what I mean by "lucky". It's not a negative it's just a fact that he lucked out to have been in three great bands in the exact same way that Geoff Hurst was "lucky" that Jimmy Greaves got injured in 1966. Doesn't take anything away from him but it points up both the disposable genius and the fatal weakness of rock and roll. It's glory is fleeting for all but a very few because only a very few have anything worthwhile to say for more than a very limited period of time. Five years, three albums. That's about the limit for 99% of even the really good bands. I know you like a good analogy, Ian. And I like most of them, but this one doesn't work at all. Lydon didn't get lucky and fit into a winning team. That would be like Howard Devoto getting injured after Real Life and Johnny stepping in with a musical hat-track of 2nd Hand Daylight, Correct Use Of Soap and MM&TW (not suer if that one actually crossed the line though!). If anything JL was the Sir Alf who put his winning team, PIL, together. Does this make Album his Mexico '70 - quarter finalists who should have done better? ; ) I do like a good analogy it is true! Maybe this wasn't the best. You also know I like a bit of shake up in the old rock and roll museum every now and again. It gets kind of dusty in a Syd-was-responsible-for-the-only-good-Floyd kind of a way. Though I stand by the thought that the Pistols was not JL's idea and he wasn't the driving musical force in PIL either. He was the focus sure but the other three determined almost entirely where the music was going. True also of the later band. That's not conjecture btw. I would also contend that almost anyone could have fronted the Pistols with McClaren behind the scenes. Maybe not successfully but it was possible that anyone could have filled that slot and the band would still have been a musical juggernaut yet JL couldn't possibly have come up with the Pistols aesthetic on his own or anything like it. The Pistols tried a load of singers before they settled on Lydon. Nick Kent fronting the SPs would have been crap but it would still have been a simulcra of the Pistols we know. A bit more Iggy and a bit less Arthur Askey but sonically the same band and with McClaren's political spin the same marketing ploy. How about Serginho for Brazil in 82? Or is that going too far?!
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