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U-Know! Forum » The French banning the niqab/burka |
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dave clarkson 2988 posts |
Apr 17, 2011, 00:01
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Yes I know it isn't
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Citizensmurf 1703 posts |
Apr 17, 2011, 01:08
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I can't speak to the political climate of France of the UK, but I support their decision to ban the oppressive costume. Germany has banned the swastika, and any person or group around the world who adorns one are labelled (rightfully so) as Neo-Nazis. No one questions that it is now a symbol of hate in the context of fascism. The word nigger isn't legally banned, but I doubt anyone on this forum would use it in public conversation. And people support the censorship of the written word in most cases (even Mark Twain isn't immune). So why would the burka ban be an attack on anyone's personal freedoms? Sure, at first there might some who refuse to adhere to this law. But the message I think it sends is, we're not putting up with your barbaric treatment of women in our country, just as no one tolerates a skinhead demonstrator, and no one supports a racist and backward looking vernacular. I live in Canada, and there has been similar discussion of a burka ban here, which I would support (even though we have a large Muslim population, I have never seen anyone wearing a burka in public). I'm all for freedom of expression and religion, and we have a very diverse culture here, but the burka is not freedom, it is repression.
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geoffrey_prime 758 posts |
Apr 17, 2011, 04:12
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There's a key word missing, for me, from your post - "context". Regarding the "oppressive costume" - who are we supporting - the folks wearing said garments...or the folks who just dont like people wearing kit they are no comfortable with? The swastika may be, in certain circles, a sign of fascist hate, but, as it is an ancient symbol, first used in Neolithic times...I am sure we can reclaim it from the "far right". Let's face it, the NF no longer have ownership of the Cross of St. George" "The word nigger isn't legally banned" - yes...and why should it be? It is in wide use in music, film etc....but if someone uses the word in an abusive, name-calling context.. we all know it is unacceptable. Finally, on the burka; I agree folk should not be forced to wear, but, I get the sense that the people who are uncomfortable with the burka are those who have to "look at it"...rather than those who have to "wear it"!
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Citizensmurf 1703 posts |
Apr 17, 2011, 05:12
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geoffrey_prime wrote: There's a key word missing, for me, from your post - "context". Regarding the "oppressive costume" - who are we supporting - the folks wearing said garments...or the folks who just dont like people wearing kit they are no comfortable with? The swastika may be, in certain circles, a sign of fascist hate, but, as it is an ancient symbol, first used in Neolithic times...I am sure we can reclaim it from the "far right". Let's face it, the NF no longer have ownership of the Cross of St. George" "The word nigger isn't legally banned" - yes...and why should it be? It is in wide use in music, film etc....but if someone uses the word in an abusive, name-calling context.. we all know it is unacceptable. Finally, on the burka; I agree folk should not be forced to wear, but, I get the sense that the people who are uncomfortable with the burka are those who have to "look at it"...rather than those who have to "wear it"! Actually I did type that word. My point was there are many things in the world people view as wrong even though their wrongness may contradict our western notions of freedom of choice/speech/expression. Yes I would feel uncomfortable if I saw a woman in a burka in my country, I would also feel horrified the same as I would seeing a child forced into prostitution. The burka is not a freedom of expression no matter how you slice it. It is a tool of repression. If someone wanted to protest for their right to commit legal female circumcision in this country, there would be a nationwide uproar (and why there isn't one for male circumcision I don't understand). This isn't just a squeamish topic that needs to be whitewashed, it is a basic violation of human rights and has no place in any culture and certainly not in my own.
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geoffrey_prime 758 posts |
Apr 17, 2011, 23:22
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This is what I mean about "context".: You say: "Yes I would feel uncomfortable if I saw a woman in a burka in my country, I would also feel horrified the same as I would seeing a child forced into prostitution. The burka is not a freedom of expression no matter how you slice it. It is a tool of repression". I could only agree with that if the ladies wearing the burka, considered that they HAD to wear it. Then on to your "circumcision" point.. personally, I can't see any reason. religious or otherwise, to chop off various body parts, in the name of any religion! This is a basic argument that elders from the religious groups concerned should address....and fix. Remind me, what fooking century are we living in?!!!
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geoffrey_prime 758 posts |
Apr 17, 2011, 23:39
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Further, considering your post(s), I just wanted to make clear my view that , in my opinion, you don't have a point at all.
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Citizensmurf 1703 posts |
Apr 18, 2011, 03:16
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geoffrey_prime wrote: Further, considering your post(s), I just wanted to make clear my view that , in my opinion, you don't have a point at all. What a polite way of saying you think I'm an idiot. I'm not going to spoon feed you my opinions just so there is some semblance of a 'discussion' here. I firmly believe that banning the burka is progress, and if you don't, then don't move to France.
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Deepinder Cheema 1972 posts |
Edited Apr 20, 2011, 18:15
Apr 18, 2011, 14:27
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I support a muslim's right to wear a burqa, even though I feel there is a huge amount of baggage about why they wear it, or be unwittingly repressed into doing so - in the end it is their business. I thank god that I am not a muslim. I don't hold with the state getting involved in an outright ban. I believe that the french ban has NOT helped a single french woman mentally feel that she is legally now unshackled from wearing an unwanted garment. I am 60/40 inclined as per woman -vs- state.
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Son Of Custard 111 posts |
Apr 18, 2011, 16:07
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I have a whole wardrobe full of see-through burka's in seasonal colors. I like to wear sexy undergarments under them too.
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sanshee 1080 posts |
Apr 18, 2011, 16:22
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Cheers everyone. Enjoyed reading over the responses. Now I've come to this. If it's a question of being forced into it, then surely no one would shrugh that off as a 'cultural' matter. But assuming a woman isn't being forced, is just following her own beliefs, there's still something fundamentally problematic. The decent amongst us go about our stuff doing our best not to discriminate. When we step out, we don't know what type of people we're gonna encounter, and generally, we say 'so long as they're not being an *arse*', we say 'they're ok by me.' We even say 'hiya' to people we'll probably never met again, and it's all good. The face veil however, takes away from that level of openness, and automatically, leaves us no choice but to discriminate. I meet a few muslim women at the school gate, wearing 'head coverings', and I nod them a small hello as they do to me, and that's made possible coz we can see each other! If any of them were veiled, I'd have to go right up to them, crane my neck like a loon and peer heavily into their eyes to know if they wanted to speak or not. So it wouldn't happen, would it? I'd be *forced* to discriminate, but whose fault would it be? Mine? Theirs? Has anyone got a right to court that? That sort of thing ain't discussed enough IMO. x
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