Lawrence
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 19:28
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I did hear that American forces abused Germans after WWII as well, many of them innocent/non-nazi as you said.
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Lawrence
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 19:32
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I might as well end with talking about what a poet friend once said during a spoken-word performance -- the swastika looked to him like the ceiling fan over the dinner table at his parents' house.
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laresident
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Re: the Swastika
Oct 14, 2003, 05:09
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A few years back, travelling around india on a moped I was struck by seeing loads of swastikas on temples and in peoples back garden shrines. It was refreshing to see it in such a setting with no connotations of the horror it has in the west.
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Hob
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The solution.
Oct 14, 2003, 09:42
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Nice one Lawrence, rather than reclaim it, cos as has been pointed out, It's not "ours" to reclaim, you're more likely to see it in india, where it doesn't need reclaiming.
Instead, It could be rendered nonsensical. The swastika as a symbol of nowt in partiucular, maybe ceiling fans at a push.
I'm not being sarcy here either. I really resent the fact that when I see one, it radges me up. It's not the symbol I'm reacting to, it's the associations.
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necropolist
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 14, 2003, 09:59
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of course the US government has, over the course of its history, caused greater harm even than the Nazi's. As you say the School of the America's has trained some of the vilest most reactionary people on the planet - inc;luding some who undoubtedly WERE actual fascists.
The difference is, basically, one of timescale & intensity. The US govt has committed those acts largely secretly, behind closed dorrs, and over a prolonged period of time. And from a position of being undoubtedly the Number 1 in the world - the most powerful and dominant country in human history.
Now imagine what Nazi Germany would have been like, how it would have armed governments & suppressed people had IT been the worlds largest superpower, with nukes, and was in that position for well over 50 years.
How much worse do you think they would have been?
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Lawrence
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 14, 2003, 13:23
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I think it would be the same thing really. I'm obviously not saying I'm pro-nazi, but at least if nazi Germany was a superpower it would be more honest in comparison to how the US deceptively tout that they are "free and democratic". I think both the US and nazi Germany are very much alike -- it's all condescending Hegelian fascism to me.
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necropolist
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 14, 2003, 14:04
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first off, of course you're obviously not pro-nazi lawrence, the question is about how different fascism (esp hitlers fascism) was to 'normal' brutal capitalist rule. fascism is just capitalism at its most brutal and unforgiving, its naked hand if you will. and so yes, there is that degree to which naked rule is 'better' than the hidden variety. but it is only a slight degree compared with everything else that goes on. so you may know that it is a brutal and utterly vile regime, but if you cant do anything about it - because free unions and parties have been banned, all froms of opposition to hte state outlawed, and you may well be in a concentration camp, then that doesn't really matter for shit does it? whilst most people do accept much, if not all, of the bullshit about democracy most of the time, when the crunch comes (whatever that crunch might be) people do see through it and take action - even in the states, supposedly the western country with the lowest level of, socialist/union/leftist activity, its the country that invented the wildcat strike!
US politics does stress the cult of the individual in a way that is scarily similar to fascism, and the hegel parallel is quite right, but that is still only one feature, not one unique to fascism either, again, fascism is just where that feature becomes clearest.
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anthonyqkiernan
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 14, 2003, 14:50
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"fascism is just capitalism at its most brutal and unforgiving"
Is that true? I often wonder about this. Surely the state control of fascism would be in opposition to free trade, or global markets?
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Lawrence
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 14, 2003, 15:10
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The ironic thing first off is -- I know it's hard to believe -- when Mussolini came up with his version of fascism he claimed to be against capitalism, "plutocracy" as he called it. But paradoxically he later described his movement as the idea of a government being a corporation, which does sound hypocritical, doesn't it? (I've tried to talk about fascism before on Slate.com but got banned. Maybe the editors had mistaken me for an actual fascist, but then there's actual hypocritical fascist types posting crap on that forum so I don't know what the fucks going on here! No, I'm not pro-fascist either, or at least I don't think so anyways...)
I don't know about you, but sometimes I think I'd feel better if my country was actually ruled by a naked military police state -- I'd hate that, sure, but I'd have more respect for it than this fake "freedom" shit. If I spoke my ming and I wound up kidnapped and tortured for it, at least I'd be content that they listed to me anyways. Of course I'm a fairly dignified person now and I don't think any government could do anything to truly hurt me or kill my spirit. I'm a bit of a masochist anyways and I wouldn't mind the free sex either ;-).
And even if I didn't have the dignity I now have, the fact that I have Asperger's Syndrome might make me violently react to any mistreatment I would get, at any rate.
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necropolist
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 14, 2003, 15:19
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aye, all fascists (pretty much) claim to be anti-capitalist. even bloody hitler said they were 'socialists'. but in fact they just turned the state into one big corporation, most big capitalists were allowed nbot only to exist, but to thrive under fascism, cos it is big businesses biggest friend.
would you really be happier with one brief grasp of free air? cos thats all you'd get you know. then its bye bye. you're dead. thats the simple brutal cold hard fact of it. no shitting around, would make guantanamo look like a club18-30.
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