FourWinds
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 14:01
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Like everyone else I think "Why bother?", but in answer to your question of 'can it be done?' I'd have to say no.
The (real) living memory issue is only a small part of the problem. The real problem is that it is the first evil symbol of the media age. It is so heavily documented and re-displayed on TV (esp. Discovery Channel showing progs on Hitler) that it is in everyone's faces still.
In the past any symbol that may have been used, such as the Roman Eagles, would have caused the same 'living memory' issues, but people die and memories fade. However, the Swastica will permanently be 'within living memory' through archive film and books and photos and all those US war films it will never go away in its evil form.
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ratcni01
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 14:17
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True, I guess, in the end it might be possible to run out of simple symbols.
That does not necessarily justify the use of a symbol which is so deeply offensive, repugnant and hate associated for so many people.
I don't personally believe that a symbol in itself has any special power except on a personal level, for instance having a personal mandala, designed by myself, might be a potent reminder/symbol that has meaning for me, this could of course apply to a group of people too. People are perfectly entitled attach whatever meaning they like to a symbol, but like I said before, what counts is what you do, not what symbol or name you do it under or what you say.
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ratcni01
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 14:23
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What you say, within reason!! Before anyone gets on my case about that
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Lawrence
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 14:38
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"But What Ends When The Symbols Shatter"
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Lawrence
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 14:42
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I think, though, stuff like that is used to deflect that most governments in existence are just as inherently evil as the nazis were. (And yes, I do agree the nazis definitely were!)
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Hob
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 14:53
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That just went whoosh! over me head.
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Hob
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 15:04
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I take your point about it being offensive, even though it's what is represented that is repulsive.
I don't know if manwoman gets a lot of grief from holocaust survivors, but I should imagine it is the case. The case for reclaiming it would be a lot stronger if it came from somone who had had direct experience of the evils perpetrated under it's auspices.
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necropolist
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 15:11
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whilst agreing that all governments have indeed been pretty much inherently..... reactionary, vile, and in need of overthrowing (I dont like to use the word evil about anything, i think it almost lets them off the hook in many ways, tho thats a totally different argument), it is still vitally important to recognise the differences posed by a fascist/nazi government. they are the very nadir of democracy and workers/human rights. they are in a different zone entirely, and we should recognise the almost unique threat they pose, the better to oppose them.
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Hob
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 15:18
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It can be reclaimed, but only on a one-by-one basis. as far as manwoman is concerned, it's not a symbol of nazism anymore. As far as most of the rest of the world are concerned, it is.
The chances of the reclamation ever hitting critical mass whilst we're around to see it are pretty slim.
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Hob
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Re: Reclaiming the Swastika
Oct 13, 2003, 15:22
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So what you saying? That vile regimes should use symbols we recognise as indicating vilesness? Or that the swastika should not be reclaimed so that we all remember the vileness of the nazis?
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