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tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Scots/Picts/Celts/Romans/Saxons/etc
Nov 04, 2012, 17:15
GLADMAN wrote:
tiompan wrote:
The source of the Brutus foundation myth was Nennius , a Welshman , then Geoffrey of Monmouth ,another Welshman built on that . I think you may be thinking of Scota ,the Scots equivalent . Foundation myths like over imaginative (hi)stories are everywhere .Another one is the Scots genocide of the Picts , resulting in a unified nation .
The King list , like the above was written centuries after the most of the kings had died . Considering that the Picts had no written records they were unlikely to be accurate , they are false up to just before the the time of writing , that is different from being falsified which suggests some tampering of the “facts “ . The use of gaelic was part of the assimilation of that language and culture into that of the Picts ,it can be seen in material culture where the earliest Pictish stones had no christian iconography by the mid period around the time when Kenneth was crowned , Christianity the religion in the Gaeltachd , informed and was mixed with Pictish symbols , by the end of the tradition the Pictish stones had a only christian symbols ,a clear transition rather than abrupt revolutionary change .


Kenneth MacAlpin must have been some man to achieve the C9th amalgamation without significant bloodshed - to get a people to willingly give up their language and culture. There are not many examples of that to my knowledge... not without there having been some overwhelmingly beneficial 'carrot' offered. I guess my problem is I can not determine what that carrot was. What was in it for the Picts? Why did they resist Roman incursions so forcibly only to throw in their lot with a group of Irish origin? Another explanation could be that history was written by the victors to suit the victor's political agenda. That wouldn't be the first time. I shudder to think how the history of Britain would read if Hitler had have triumphed.

It is also not clear to me why medieval Scottish scholars such as Boece felt the need to cite a pre-Christian foundation... which, so I understand, involved literally inventing 40 kings to fill in the resultant gap in the King list.... if there was no suggestion of discord, no dark folk memory to overcome. I would describe this as falsifying, to be honest. Not a big deal if notables such as Buchanan had not later cited Boece's work when the decision was taken to remove Mary Queen of Scots.

It is stated as a certainty that the genocide of the Picts is a medieval myth. I obviously need to do a lot more reading since this is a very interesting subject. However there was clearly also much construction of 'pro-Scots' myth by medieval (and later) Scottish scholars suggesting - to me, anyway - that there was some skeleton lurking in the cupboard. Perhaps archaeology will one day unearth the physical evidence to throw more light on the Pict question; perhaps the discipline might also uncover the physical remains of the suggested mass Anglo Saxon invasion to conclusively debunk DNA analysis by the likes of Oppenheimer? The archived records, such as they are, would not seem enough to come to any firm conclusion at the current time.


You are puzzled by the integration of Pictish and the similar Gaelic culture and language yet have no problem with Germanic incursions into England (Cunliffes 1:3 to 1:5 ratios are not insignificant ). Similarly you accept the myths of Gaelic genocide with no evidence but question that of Gildas and his rivers of blood . However both cases are quite different , there is no evidence of a great incursion of Gaels into what was Pictland or even a battle that led to a Scots victory .The integration took centuries and as Alex Woolf notes there were kings that followed Kenneth who were seen as Picts and Kenneth's father Alpin was probably Pictish , the name certainly is .Even the idea the Scots or Gaels were originally Irish is questionable .
Buchanan using Boece as a source who in turn based his work on earlier works is typical of medieval histories ,there is distinction between quoting works that are wrong but which you accept to be correct and falsifying . There is no way that either would have been aware of the accuracy of the king list anymore than Geoffrey did the building of Stonehenge . There was an incursion of Germanic peoples into England even accepted by sceptics ,see above , their culture and language would have differed to a greater extent from the indigenous population of the time to a much greater extent than that found between the Gaelic and Pictish cultures who shared a the same land mass and had even fought together against common enemies .
There are big problems with Oppenheimer , I posted a pdf (twice ) recently with some of the most obvious genetic ones .I'll post it again if you like but a simple web search on dna forums will provide plenty of info on the problems encountered , in fact it has got to the point where he and Sykes are hardly mentioned these days , think Atkinson in archaeology , we have moved on and a learnt a lot since 2006 . It's worth mentioning that he is primarily a paediatrician and his biggest critics are geneticists .His linguistic ideas are even stranger e.g. the Picts spoke a non Indo European language , English came from Scandanavia and was spoken or something very similar in England before the Roman invasion ,there are no Celtic place names in England etc .
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