Lawrence
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Re: Freedom from X vs Y
Sep 22, 2003, 19:56
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Frankly, I don't shed tears for the victims of repression. I throw magical curses at the people responsible. Even if nothing happens, it does make me feel better...
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Lawrence
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Re: What was the question again
Sep 22, 2003, 19:59
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Well, if "capitalism" doesn't "take sides", why does it repress people?
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Lawrence
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Re: Freedom from X vs Y
Sep 22, 2003, 20:01
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Sounds like Ayn Rand, whose work is so mawkish I can barely read it, much less agree with it.
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morfe
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Organic local Ale
Sep 22, 2003, 20:01
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I just had one of those 'moments'.
What have I done, there is no 'Organic Local Ale' here of course!
Here lies lesson the first: If it ain't broke don't fix it!
(PS, with respect, no I'm not 'seeing' your point, I was already aware that Capitalism was genetically allied to the same bully-systems that always start wars, "meet the new boss, same as the old boss")
We won't get fooled agaiiinn!!! (Wanna buy a Hummer?)
Who'dathawditt!
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Lawrence
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Re: Progress
Sep 22, 2003, 20:03
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Frankly I think the real problem is progress.
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morfe
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Re: What was the question again
Sep 22, 2003, 20:13
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"Well, if "capitalism" doesn't "take sides", why does it repress people?"
That's a billion dollar question with a thousand answers. I would say that Capitalism doesn't 'repress' people, it buys them. Go figure the difference. But it works in such a way that it buys the poor/culturally dispossesed people and looks good on the block for it. When white people 'repressed' the Native Americans they the Indians) were given such bad press that even those few of them who escaped slaughter were 'poor souls' who needed saving, by the Godfearing money-lenders. The hard bit is this. Some of them WERE God-fearing and thought they were doing 'good'. Capitalism is a system as far as I can see, that can 'manage' large groups of people pretty well by keeping them glued to poductivity and consumerism. This 'management' is said to be many things including 'freedom, democracy, good life, equal opportunity', all antonyms of enslavement. That's how we can work all those hours and never question why we have to, because we have been told the alternative is madness, violence, enslavement etc etc.
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Dog 3000
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Re: Progress
Sep 22, 2003, 20:15
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"We have the capability to destroy the world. This was impossible 200 yrs ago. This to me represents the very living embodiment of human failure and antithesis of progress and negates everything else."
We have the capability to migrate off this world. It is starting to be possible today, and should be feasible in 200 yrs.
Which doesn't mean we will either destory the world or leave it. These are only "possibilities" and as such don't negate anything. What matters is real events on the ground. Of course that's a mixed picture of what we might agree to call "successes and failures."
We invented nuke bombs and also small pox vaccines -- so far the lives saved from the latter greatly outnumber lives lost from the former.
Sez you:
"As for being blameless, that's an inpossibility, every cause has an effect, the best most of us can do is only promote the good causes. But when you've got one person thinking a good cause is buying more weapons and keeping their thirst at bay with a soft drink manufacturer that sponsors violence, and another thinking a good cause is growing vegetables in the ground and drinking homemade lemonade, then what?"
Comment on the first part: every cause was an effect of some previous cause, and every effect will cause more effects in the future. Every cause/effect implies there were other causes & effects that could have happened but didn't. In the end we've got a history that "is what it is" (which is why I don't go for the "blame game" -- so-and-so slaughtered such-and-such, so it is OK for such's to "hate" so's . . . )
And the present is where we live, and it's the future we can effect.
Anyway! Back to the point -- yes, given the choice some people will live on the farm and drink organic carrot juice, others would live in the city and drink Coca-Cola. I say: fine, live and let live.
If the city-living-coke-drinker lifestyle is non-sustainable, Mama Nature will take care of that problem. Or people will "wake up" and stop drinking coke before it's too late. Everyone who practices and advocates organic-juice-drinking in an effective and convincing manner would be part of the solution (if coke-drinking really is "the problem.") People vote in elections and referendums that would enact laws balancing the needs and rights of coke vs. organic juice drinkers (metaphors for our old pals "X vs. Y")
I like that method of handling the problem better than "let's smash the system!!!!" or "lock up the coke drinkers" or "make coke illegal" etc. -- those "solutions" just seem to me like the causes of more negative effects in the future.
Of course this is a "market" solution -- let the memes battle it out for hearts & minds. I trust humanity to get it more right than wrong in the long run -- we've done OK so far.
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morfe
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Re: Progress
Sep 22, 2003, 20:15
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I think the real problem is the way so-called progress is measured. If it's presented as figures, per-capita, and death tolls, and gross-income, then it's pretty low-reaching. If progress was reaching a level of harmony with ourselves and our environment that could allow us peace and fulfilment and much joy, then I would call that progress.
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Dog 3000
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Re: What was the question again
Sep 22, 2003, 20:22
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"Well, if "capitalism" doesn't "take sides", why does it repress people?"
Who says it does? Is "capitalism" a thing at all, or is it an abstraction meant to boil down complex social relations into a few simple concepts that puny human minds can comprehend? Have you heard MacLuhan's meme: "the map is not the territory?" (also "the menu is not the meal", etc.)
Why does socialism repress people?
Why does religion repress people?
Why does sexuality repress people?
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morfe
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Re: Progress
Sep 22, 2003, 20:23
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You're right that 'Smash the system' is counterproductive. I think we find ourselves in some agreement.
But not. I'm in CHAINS, my fundamental freedom is NOT THERE, and it's your fault for saying the enemy is 'ok good lUck to them leT &&** evolution sort thEm out',no , no ,KILL (GRAARGHYARARGH!! ARGH (smash, slice cut maim OOGHYA! WOOF WOOOF!!)
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