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Lawrence
9547 posts

Re: Freedom from X vs Y
Sep 22, 2003, 18:23
And since I've always been an outcast myself, I can understand what morfe says.
morfe
morfe
2992 posts

Conceptual
Sep 22, 2003, 18:26
Chief Maquinna, Nootka:

"Once I was in Victoria, and I saw a very large house. They told me it was a bank and that
the white men place their money there to be taken care of, and that by and by they got it
back with interest. "We are Indians and we have no such bank; but when we have plenty of money or
blankets, we give them away to other chiefs and people, and by and by they return them
with interest, and our hearts feel good. Our way of giving is our bank."

I compare that to what we 'have' to teach our children (in order for them to 'get by or even 'succeed') and it makes me feel like crying for us all.
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: Freedom from X vs Y
Sep 22, 2003, 18:55
I've always felt like an outcast too -- so what?

I guess as Mof put it, we're all wired differently. I don't think all the tears in the world shed for "victims of so-called capitalism" has much effect on anything. Life on earth has always been filled with suffering.

Does anyone have a practical alternative to "the system"? Not that I've heard about yet . . .

I rambled on and on about all the bits thrown at me here -- NatAm chiefs making speeches, etc. -- but it's just too much stuff and I'm losing focus, so I decided not to post it.

What was the question again?
morfe
morfe
2992 posts

What was the question again
Sep 22, 2003, 19:04
"If capitalism is (in it's objectivism) fundamentally opposed to 'morals', and the 'use of force', why oh why does 21stC capitalism take the side of the 'moralist ' warmongers who reduce the whole world to 'good vs evil'???"
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: What was the question again
Sep 22, 2003, 19:11
Oh that . . .

"If capitalism is (in it's objectivism) fundamentally opposed to 'morals', and the 'use of force', why oh why does 21stC capitalism take the side of the 'moralist ' warmongers who reduce the whole world to 'good vs evil'???"

1. What makes you believe capitalism is "objective" any more than anything that is "not-capitalism"?

2. Who says capitalism is "fundamentally opposed to morals and the use of force"? That's just plain weird. I don't know of any kind of system that doesn't "use force" in some circumstances, and all "systems" have a moral basis.

3. Capitalism doesn't "take sides" -- INDIVIDUALS take sides and use concepts like "capitalism" (or "religion" or whatever) to justify their positons.

That's why I started by asking questions about what you think you mean by "capitalism" and trying to look at the assumptions underlying the term as you (and some others around here) use it.

Does "warmongering" flow from capitalism, or has it been around as long as human civilization has existed? I'd say the latter -- in today's world you could say (and Marx did say) politics is shaped by "capitalism", whereas in Europe 1000 years ago it was shaped by "feudalism" and "theocracy."

War itself precedes all these other concepts meant to describe social structures.
morfe
morfe
2992 posts

Re: Freedom from X vs Y
Sep 22, 2003, 19:12
"Life on earth has always been filled with suffering."

Yes, by GREEDHEADS!!!! I can't see why we promote greed as the best way to live when it's proven that power games all lead to war. I used to think that humans were their own epidemic and that increased pollution and greed would inevitably lead to a kind of ecological armageddon if they didn't press the button first. But now I'm convinced that although human nature is acquisitive, it's not the be all and end al. Culturally we have displaced ourselves from the earth and other living things and focused on acquisition as the utimate goal, via competitiveness. This was unthinkable to certain cultures as little as a hundred years ago, are you telling me that corporatism and war is the next stage of evolution?? What about progress? Do we agree that it is a myth?
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: Freedom from X vs Y
Sep 22, 2003, 19:30
"Corporatism" is just another form of collective human organization. It's a tribe based on economic affiliation, instead of bloodlines. Some tribes are good, some are bad. Some corporations are good, some are bad. Depends on the leaders and the goals.

You can blame "greedheads" for all human suffering, but as near as I can tell all human societies have been run by greedheads since we stopped being hunter-gatherers and started living in villages.

It gets back to what I said long ago -- the root cause of all human problems is HUMANS!

And since we're humans, we're "guilty" as much as we are "victims."

Another difference I see here: you are looking for a "them" to blame for everything that is "bad" . . . I simply blame ALL OF US, including myself. And we also get to share credit for all that is "good."

And yes, I do believe there is such a thing as "progress" . . .
morfe
morfe
2992 posts

Re: What was the question again
Sep 22, 2003, 19:33
"War itself precedes all these other concepts meant to describe social structures."

But find me one war whose roots weren't in pursuit of personal profit or promotion of 'the one way'. You'll find that more rational cultures (especially the Indian Nations) were aware of far subtler yet more fundamental laws than we can impose by any fiscal system. Yes they had tribal feuds, but compared to the intense genocide that our culture has in it's swathe, along with certain Eastern Empires, I would say that the West had been lost, and the concept of freedom and democracy is about nothing more than a man with a gun, and a man with a dollar. We can sing songs about it. We are lucky.

I could go on about the evils of Communist China (and i have), but it's only my own 'society' I live in, I can't pay lip service too readily as a man who's un-free. I don't ever see a point where the discussion to improve things should stop. Right now we can promote Fair trade, pollution laws, anti-croneyism, etc etc. But more importantly we can ask why, which, when, and establish history and the present as an honest reality and not a "one way" sales vehicle of half-lies and full lies. It's when i live in a system where 'inquiry' gives way to 'patriotism', and though i hate organised religions I see the fiscal'cult' of the individual' to be no less scary. The Dollar sign may as well be God. That scares me every bit as much as the Malleus Maleficarum. Zero or hero? Rich or poor?

You are by your own feelings 'relatively free', I am by my own feelings 'imprisoned' in a system invented by people who have little to no knowledge of the Land we live on other than an exploitable commodity. Will the twain meet? Yes I'll buy you a pint! (organic local ale of course ;-)
morfe
morfe
2992 posts

Progress
Sep 22, 2003, 19:45
We have the capability to destroy the world. This was impossible 200 yrs ago. This to me represents the very living embodiment of human failure and antithesis of progress and negates everything else.

You mentioned 'us' and 'them'. I don't feel angry at an invisible 'them'. There are enough real enemies of you and me, many of them are memes, many of them are sly pieces of paper passing a law or ignoring another. As for being blameless, that's an inpossibility, every cause has an effect, the best most of us can do is only promote the good causes. But when you've got one person thinking a good cause is buying more weapons and keeping their thirst at bay with a soft drink manufacturer that sponsors violence, and another thinking a good cause is growing vegetables in the ground and drinking homemade lemonade, then what?
Dog 3000
Dog 3000
4611 posts

Re: What was the question again
Sep 22, 2003, 19:50
I said:
"War itself precedes all these other concepts meant to describe social structures."

You said:
"But find me one war whose roots weren't in pursuit of personal profit or promotion of 'the one way'."

To which I reply:
Sounds like you're starting to see my point -- it's not "capitalism" that causes wars, it's "personal profit and/or promotion of the 'one way'." You don't need "capitalism" for either of those things to exist. My problem with your argument is you ascribe everything you don't like to the label/concept "capitalism." That's like saying "it's all Satan's fault." And it sounds suspiciously like you have found your own "one way." ;-)

You said:
"Yes they had tribal feuds, but compared to the intense genocide that our culture has in it's swathe,"

Whose culture are you referring to? Depending on your answer, I'm not sure I should be included in "our" . . .

You said:
"Right now we can promote Fair trade, pollution laws, anti-croneyism, etc etc."

Sez I:
Sounds practical! :-)

Sez you:
"But more importantly we can ask why, which, when, and establish history and the present as an honest reality and not a "one way" sales vehicle of half-lies and full lies."

Sez I:
Huh?


Finally droog Mofre sez:
"You are by your own feelings 'relatively free', I am by my own feelings 'imprisoned' in a system invented by people who have little to no knowledge of the Land we live on other than an exploitable commodity. Will the twain meet? Yes I'll buy you a pint! (organic local ale of course ;-)"

Thanks for the offer! . . . I don't plan to be down your way any time soon though. :-(

These kinds of conversations ARE always better in person over an ale . . . :-)
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