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Moon Cat 9577 posts |
Sep 21, 2003, 02:37
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Agreed with your point there Dog3000 BUT..... This is sub-sliding away from the definitions of Capatilism per se, but what I think Lawrence is getting at here, (and might be the some of the essential 'stuff' informing Morfe's rhetoric) is the frustration and anger at how the US adminsistration has co-opted the language of "freedom" to define & justify any and every policy; be it military or economic. I have to say it turns my guts to see that beady eyed coke headed dumb fucker to chuck around the phrases "Freedom" & "Democracy" (et al) as if they where some sovereign property of the goddam U S of A. It;s dangerous times when the leader of ONE nation, the most powerful nation on earth, is essentially defining 'freedom' via broadcast; what it is and how to use it, fight for it and defend it and expect the rest of the world to agree. In fact it seems to me that America is essentially following its consumerist instincts and branding freedom as a 'product' and whats more an American Product.TM Cant help but think of Captain Freedom in the Running Man now ;^) I know I;m not being particularly articulate (its late!) but I feel I have to say; can you please remind your president that he does not have a mandate on Freedom and/or democracy or any other affiliated terms? These are fluid, philosophical & yet possibly beautiful concepts and not (yet) owned by USA Freedom-2-U .Co?
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Moon Cat 9577 posts |
Sep 21, 2003, 02:37
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Agreed with your point there Dog3000 BUT..... This is sub-sliding away from the definitions of Capatilism per se, but what I think Lawrence is getting at here, (and might be the some of the essential 'stuff' informing Morfe's rhetoric) is the frustration and anger at how the US adminsistration has co-opted the language of "freedom" to define & justify any and every policy; be it military or economic. I have to say it turns my guts to see that beady eyed coke headed dumb fucker to chuck around the phrases "Freedom" & "Democracy" (et al) as if they where some sovereign property of the goddam U S of A. It;s dangerous times when the leader of ONE nation, the most powerful nation on earth, is essentially defining 'freedom' via broadcast; what it is and how to use it, fight for it and defend it and expect the rest of the world to agree. In fact it seems to me that America is essentially following its consumerist instincts and branding freedom as a 'product' and whats more an American Product.TM Cant help but think of Captain Freedom in the Running Man now ;^) I know I;m not being particularly articulate (its late!) but I feel I have to say; can you please remind your president that he does not have a mandate on Freedom and/or democracy or any other affiliated terms? These are fluid, philosophical & yet possibly beautiful concepts and not (yet) owned by USA Freedom-2-U .Co?
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Moon Cat 9577 posts |
Sep 21, 2003, 02:40
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Dunno what happend there sorry.....one post became two. FREEDOM!
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morfe 2992 posts |
Sep 21, 2003, 04:03
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"I guess the underlying assumptions that differ in our world views have to do with such things as the fact that I don't feel threatened by "freedom", I cherish it -- and I am not afraid of other people etiher (even ones with a different skin tone or sexual orientation.)" No, I'm sorry if I was unclear. My point is that we have to BUY freedom. REAL freedom is a concept so far out of our well-trained minds that we have hardly a concept of it except fear (generally speaking). "I can smoke weed and play in a rocknroll band. I doubt any of the above would be true if I lived in the Soviet Union " Therein lies one of our differences I think. You appear to feel privileged/thankful for being able to do such fundamental things as make music or roll up leaves that grow in the ground and set light to them. My problem is that we SHOULD feel grateful, or have to offset such basic freedoms elsewhere. To me, that's not freedom. I don't measure my freedom by someone elses enslavement, neither do I measure your freedom by someone 'in the gulag'. I just think it's ridiculous that we are trained to think we are 'lucky' to be 'able' to make music or put a small selecion of natural substances in our bodies. I'm more appalled that McFuck is working towards 'licensing' vegetable seeds and 'phasing out' indigenous crops than I am 'grateful' to be able to work my arse off to pay some rich fucker my rent money. As for licensing seedst, that means copyrighting life itself. Freedom my arse.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Sep 21, 2003, 06:20
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Not only do they play with the term 'freedom', but the term 'peace' as well. It pretty much made me give up on the concept of peace altogether.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Sep 21, 2003, 06:21
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Seems to happen alot here...
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Sep 21, 2003, 06:24
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And did Dog ever hear the saying "No one is free when others are oppressed?"
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Sep 22, 2003, 17:47
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In response to several comments: (Lawr): govt doesn't make us "free", govt is the OPPOSITE of "freedom", almost by definition. Yet let's be realistic -- unless you want a REALLY hyper-competitive and predatory society, something is necessary to regulate our worse instincts (maybe you wouldn't kill & rob your neighbors if there was no law to punish you, but a few of your neighbors would be happy to do it unto you if they could get away with it.) I prefer a democraticaly elected secular govt to do the job of regulating the economy and enforcing social laws, though we must be ever-vigilant that it's influence remains as limited as possible. (Mofre) As far as "feeling lucky" -- well, again it comes down to pragmatism. It could be worse -- I could be in N. Korea. That's just a realistic assessment of the alternatives. I don't live in an abstract concept, but a real world. Basically anyone who lives in N. America, Europe or Australia is "lucky" in that sense. Which begs the question, why are these parts of the world "more lucky" than SE Asia, the MidEast, etc? "Free" compared to what? Other systems that currently do exist / have historically existed, or pipe dream theories?
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Sep 22, 2003, 18:13
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Well, talking about freedom and government is kinda like paying with your turds in the toilet, really. I think the guy from the American Music Club once said that.
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morfe 2992 posts |
Sep 22, 2003, 18:19
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Yeah I live in the real world too. Pointing out our differences was not an insult, please know that. The point I was making was, I ca only speak as I feel. I cannot build my own house, I have no land, I was born into debt. That's not freedom to me, it's just being born into a 'systm' where people tell you what you can and can't do. Usually people with money. No I'm not in jail but I am oppressed, I just don't see how looking at brutal comunist regimes is going to help me see life differently, that to me is like tolerating mild racism as pragmatic because 'at least they aren't the Third Reich'. I admitted that I feel like an aberration, and I don't know why I say these things, I just wonder if anyone else out there feels the same I suppose. As for 'conceptual', I found this passage which resonates with me more strongly than any advocate for capitalism could, I appreciate that people are wired differently, so maybe discourse helps bridge but can never solve. __________________________________________ From the 1927 Grand Council of American Indians "The white people, who are trying to make us over into their image, they want us to be what they call "assimilated," bringing the Indians into the mainstream and destroying our own way of life and our own cultural patterns. They believe we should be contented like those whose concept of happiness is materialistic and greedy, which is very different from our way. We want freedom from the white man rather than to be intergrated. We don't want any part of the establishment, we want to be free to raise our children in our religion, in our ways, to be able to hunt and fish and live in peace. We don't want power, we don't want to be congressmen, or bankers....we want to be ourselves. We want to have our heritage, because we are the owners of this land and because we belong here. The white man says, there is freedom and justice for all. We have had "freedom and justice," and that is why we have been almost exterminated. We shall not forget this." ___________________________________________
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