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machineryelf 3681 posts |
Nov 22, 2009, 19:39
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forgive me if I'm being niave here http://www.marketingcharts.com/topics/entertainment/music-downloads-dont-offset-cd-sales-slump-281/ fair enough music sales have dropped 16%, that gap has been filled by computer games et al, the market place has changed but that fall still leaves them with £23 billion, this is hardly chicken feed, and certainly not an industry up against the ropes, or is it? Certainly seems healthy to me If anything the continuation of the Cowell regime should provide them with a steadier platform than say Motley Crue, there will always be a market for the latest teen pop sensation, and for every 100 who go back to singing on the club curcuit almost certainly having recouped any outlay you'll get a big star who will bring in the money What may have to stop is 8 million advances for the likes of REM, or someone might have to tell Robbie Williams 'actually that's rubbish , do it again' the next time he makes a cd, somewhere people will suffer, much the same way I assume that with the death of vinyl a fair few people in the record pressing industry went bust, and the net means that a lot of highstreet retailers are losing out Maybe you're right and Celine Dion will be left standing as all taste & decency goes to the wall, but I suspect that there is too much vested interest in other parts of the biz for it to go completely tits up. After all promotors have arenas to fill etc
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Nov 22, 2009, 20:32
Nov 22, 2009, 20:24
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machineryelf wrote: forgive me if I'm being niave here http://www.marketingcharts.com/topics/entertainment/music-downloads-dont-offset-cd-sales-slump-281/ fair enough music sales have dropped 16%, that gap has been filled by computer games et al, the market place has changed but that fall still leaves them with £23 billion, this is hardly chicken feed, and certainly not an industry up against the ropes, or is it? Certainly seems healthy to me If anything the continuation of the Cowell regime should provide them with a steadier platform than say Motley Crue, there will always be a market for the latest teen pop sensation, and for every 100 who go back to singing on the club curcuit almost certainly having recouped any outlay you'll get a big star who will bring in the money What may have to stop is 8 million advances for the likes of REM, or someone might have to tell Robbie Williams 'actually that's rubbish , do it again' the next time he makes a cd, somewhere people will suffer, much the same way I assume that with the death of vinyl a fair few people in the record pressing industry went bust, and the net means that a lot of highstreet retailers are losing out Maybe you're right and Celine Dion will be left standing as all taste & decency goes to the wall, but I suspect that there is too much vested interest in other parts of the biz for it to go completely tits up. After all promotors have arenas to fill etc And here is the problem, the new corporate model is pile-em-high-sell-em-cheap in an endless land grab for what is left of market share and in the desire for short term profits. To please share holders. There is no more wide scale investment in outsider musics. The staff (what is left of them) have no time and there is not enough money in the corporate kitty for risky ventures. Think about the millions of "name artist" cds that will be bought this year by HMV from majors for £2.00 or less in order to retail at £4. These records are not really profitable but they are all about the churn of commerce. That is all they have left to them. Good quarterly headline numbers measured in $$$$. The chickens are coming (oh boy are they coming) but the blame game is getting us nowhere. Major labels are bad! Downloading is evil! Blah blah. As with the drugs trade once you've lost the battle with the middle classes then you have to find a way to tax the supply chain. So for all forms of recorded music to survive the ISPs have to pay an intellectual property levy for the trafficking of music from which they profit and we will have to pay the ISPs a higher flat rate whether we downloaded 0 albums, 100 albums or 10,000. The industry and government then have to find a fair way to distribute that ISP money to those who have earned a right to it. Though it means the records have to get made first with private money. There will be no prior investment for anything that is not a guaranteed earner / traffic generator. That's the future ten years hence. Sure it's too late for the old model but free isn't a model. Not a sustainable one. It's a dystopia built by people who think that music costs nothing to write, nothing to make and nothing to distribute. This is why we have government intervention. This is why we will have bad law in the short term but we have gone from a system that just about served the real needs of a vibrant musical culture to one there there is no support for the new and the radical. That's the forecast for the next decade folks.
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machineryelf 3681 posts |
Nov 22, 2009, 21:01
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cheers Ian, I see what you're getting at now, personally I think your vision of the future is a bit bleak, but probably closer to the real situation, rather than my rose tinted version of good people/good places/good music finally triumphing over adversity. Sorry to harp on, I think I'm probably looking at things through a music lovers eyes, and not a business mans, but are record companies not better off with a good roster of cheap n cheerful artistes ticking over making a reasonable turnover just to keep things going, keeping the gears of the business greased, waiting for the big act to come along, i mean the chances of ten acts making 10 x small amount is = to 1 act making big amount, and in reality there are probably 20 acts who can make your small amount it's the way I work, i probably spend 4 out of 5 days a week servicing machinery that keeps me in employment, then on the 5th day i do the big job, somewhere that has 5 units, a top notch contract that makes the money, but without the rest to prop it up the final one collapses actually as you say i'm talking rot, they want short term profit and they won't take the risk just in case a band falls short looks liked were all doomed
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dodge one 1242 posts |
Nov 23, 2009, 00:22
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machineryelf wrote: http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&met=population&tdim=true&q=population+of+usa
2% of that = 6,081,195 at say 10 boots each that makes 60,810,195 at $10 a pop that means you & people like you have cost the US record industry $608,101,950 hang your heads in shame or maybe the record companies and you are making up figures to suit themselves D1 Said: I haven't made up any #'s that i'm aware of. In fact i just guessed at that 2% figure. If anything, My Elfy friend, The #'s are actually significantly LOWER. Why? Strictly speaking, with regard to Boot-leg L.P.'s....They have not particulary impacted any market since the 70's,and so please adjust your calculation figures for a 1975 USA census figure. Furthermore, the 10 that i own {which i see, since i've confessed to owning, i am now subject to various forms of "Got-Cha, you AssWipe"} are Pink Floyd outtakes and concerts....with neato titles like 'Take Linda Surfing' and 'Knobs'..... Considering i own EVERY official release that the FLOYD put out too, i figure no harm done there. Hey, at least i fessed up. Pretty small beans compared to say, Oh.....what? 1000....5000....10,000? Ill-Gotten MP3 albums on peoples {External...out of nessesity} hard-drives. At least my 10 WIZARDO Boots made a little cash for the old record shop i bought them at, back in them good old days. And a small niggle....What the fuck is up with the ''YOU GUYS" bit? The "Hang 'YOUR' heads" in shame bit? What...this is a situation percieved to be unique to AMERICA? Caused by US? Fine....just heap the blame on 'US'...were used to it. Funny.....i'll give you a pass, as you are a Brother Sailor. ELF SAID: I'm not having a dig at you here Dodge, I'm trying to get through to you that downloading is merely the tip of an iceburg, the music industry is going to have to rethink how it works, the bubble has burst, the genie is out of the bag, and ranting on about evil downloaders is a waste of time D1 SAID: A matter of perception here. I see it a little different. THE BUBBLE BURST......More like was shot with a scatter gun by pirateing and "Down-loaders" THE GENIE IS OUT OF THE BAG{BOTTLE?}......Sure is, the Digital era has allowed all those who care to be, thieves on an EPIC scale. RANTING ABOUT EVIL DOER'S.....I don't think i ranted once in all my replys. Just took as honest a look the situation as i could. It's not easy to buck the trend, or be the point man in a thread like this. TITLED: Fileshare and illegally download now!........ Whats the correct response? OK.... SURE ! ???? One last thought about that. I've seen folks here on this site offer links to copyrighted music. And post links to BLOGS that have that stuff going on... Why don't we just post links to all of JULIAN's Music? Well why not? That wouldn't be cool? It would be Disrespectfull? Not on the 'DOWN-LOW' enough? What? Julian gets a pass? Huh..... ELF SAID: Just as a matter of interest what is your take on this, local band called Bong, I purchased the cds from the band, then I found that the band had put all the stuff up for free download, where does that leave me, feeling ripped off that something I paid for has been now made free No, I'm glad that they might get a wider audience, next year they are playing Roadburn, hopefully the year after they'll conquer the world All power to the net as far as I'm concerned D1 SAID: ELF......how can you possibly not see the diffrence here? Between the CD you bought at the show and feeling RIPPED OFF that you could have got those toons at home by clicking...on the DOWNLOAD icon? Again perception..... Here is how i see it. When you bought the CD at the show, you supported the band financially.You got a physical piece of media, with what i assume some attractive packaging. Furthermore, if the CD was done nicely, in CD format, you got yourself a digital facsimle of the band at about 100% signal reproduction, albeit digitized. Those home downloads for free? They were MP3's i'd guess...at best a 80% reproduction sonically of what went down. The only thing to look at? What? Right Click/Properties.....Length of MP3 in seconds and bit-rate? How exciting...... NOT THE SAME. ELF SAID: The net has done far more to help the bands I like than it has to hinder I've seen crowds for the likes of doom increase 1000% because people now get to hear this stuff, the local scene in Newcastle has probably always been thriving but now I know about it because of the net D1 SAID: Thats all very nice, but has got nothing to do with ILLEGAL DOWNLOADING. ELF SAID: swings & roundabouts, and moaning about illegal d/l makes no difference, I didn't buy Mariah Carey cds before downloading, I'm not downloading them now D1 SAID: Again...i don't waste my time "MOANING" about anything. Mariah Carey? Whats that got to with it? Anyone can turn on a radio and immediately identify that stuff as UTTER Shit. In closing...cause i'm utterly exaushted on this subject, That article i posted earlier in this thread, stated that last year, 95% of ALL music downloads were ILLEGAL. Thats the 800 hundred pound gorilla in this room. Every fucking one of us KNOWS the difference between a Catalog item by an artist and something that some guy uploaded,that an artist put down at a concert in 1978, and was recorded with a tape recorder. Anyone that wants to pretend that they are too stupid to know the difference.....well from what i can tell, the legislature that you are all in fear of, seems to indicate a 3 strikes policy.... Figure it out. Thats it. I'm done with this thread.
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Nov 23, 2009, 00:30
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I was born the same week Led Zeppelin IV was released. ;-) My guitar is a Lyon, which I think is made by Washburn, probably made in Asia (South Korea?) It is shaped like a stratocaster, but has somewhat Gibson-esque neck action and 5 pickups. Whammy bar gets it out of tune fast just like a strat. I used to have an all-plastic guitar that was made in Puerto Rico! That one set me back about $30. It was a beater, and fun to beat on, until the neck snapped off in a basement feedback frenzy. :-) When I win the lottery, I will of course get a Les Paul or Gibson SG, as those are the coolest and best to play. B-)
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machineryelf 3681 posts |
Edited Nov 23, 2009, 08:17
Nov 23, 2009, 08:17
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Mariah Carey.....MARIAH bloody CAREY of course she has everything to do with this thread this is just an online viral promotion to ensure the winsome chipmunk faced chantuese gets promoted in all possible mediums at all possible times http://blogs.babble.com/famecrawler/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/mariah-carey-angel.jpg all hail the rodent faced queen of bilge that's me done , work today, I have no more time to annoy you ;-)
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Nov 23, 2009, 09:45
Nov 23, 2009, 09:38
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machineryelf wrote: Sorry to harp on, I think I'm probably looking at things through a music lovers eyes, and not a business mans, but are record companies not better off with a good roster of cheap n cheerful artistes ticking over making a reasonable turnover just to keep things going, keeping the gears of the business greased, waiting for the big act to come along, i mean the chances of ten acts making 10 x small amount is = to 1 act making big amount, and in reality there are probably 20 acts who can make your small amount I think if music fans knew a bit more about how the cake is divided up they would be more reluctant to download with such zeal but, as I say elsewhere, the HH kind of people are not the problem - at least they are spending money on music somewhere. However it was the hard core music fans, the people who presented downloading as something that the "cool kids" could and should do, who opened the door for the millions of Toms, Dicks and Harriets to take the new Mariah, Rhianna, Stereophonics etc etc. It was those mainstream fans, the ones who bought two or three cds a year, who kept the whole thing going. They paid for the investment in the marginal. It's very hard put any kind of promotional support behind a record and break even. Artists you have heard of and probably own records by are struggling to sell 5,000 copies across Europe on new releases. Small labels now make a large % of their money from digital and selling records to their own artists to sell off stage! Assuming you spend no more than £5k making an album then 5000 sales is not much more than a break-even proposition if those records are sold through retail channels. Spend more than £5k and you are almost certainly on a loser. Obviously there are bands who can record for buttons or make records at home but as soon as you need anything more than the basics of amateur / semi-pro recording then you need a sponsor, a grant, a trust fund or a very understanding bank manager. That's why the big hitters pull the train for the small acts and not the other way around. I don't want a musical world where the Arts Council decide what is worthy of support. Would you trust those cosseted fuckers to define your listening? I'd trust Simon Cowell before them. Really.
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Squid Tempest 8761 posts |
Edited Nov 23, 2009, 10:45
Nov 23, 2009, 10:39
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dodge one wrote: On that note, as you explained....who is 'OWED' anything? I've paid for every piece of music i own. I've pretty much given up on posting in the 'Sound-tracks of our lives' threads because, generally speaking, they read more as vanity lists to me than actual music that was purchased. FWIW I own all the music I write about on Soundtracks, I spend a lot of money on CDs. I love music, can't live without it. I do not illegally download. I am a musician, admittedly one who fails to make any money out of it (I'm probably not good enough). All the people I've met from this board who post Soundtracks are pretty similar, and I've met a pretty large proportion of them. I don't consider most of those posts to be "vanity" posts. There are a heck of a bunch of genuine music lovers around here is all. I consider the Soundtracks posts very useful and informative, because they often guide me to new music that I can then purchase. You should try not to jump to conclusions about the people on this board so readily Dodge, they're a good bunch on the whole.
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Squid Tempest 8761 posts |
Nov 23, 2009, 10:44
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This has generated a lot of heated discussion about the pros/cons of downloading, but very few people have focused on the actual legislation. Regardless of your view on downloading, this legislation is still very draconian and unpleasant. It removes the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" from the law in question. To me this is the important issue here.
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machineryelf 3681 posts |
Nov 23, 2009, 13:35
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in reply to your final point either one would be horrible, but yes at a push I'd take Cowell can't find the article I was looking for, it was about how you didn't need a record to make a living, which was based on a couple of singersongwriters so in a way defeated the object because eveything would have to have been multiplied by 4 or 5 for a band, but it made interested reading http://labs.timesonline.co.uk/blog/2009/11/12/do-music-artists-do-better-in-a-world-with-illegal-file-sharing/ point 41, from one of Gang of 4, was worth reading as was rest of article
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