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Unsung Forum » Fileshare and illegally download now! |
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mingtp 2270 posts |
Nov 21, 2009, 15:28
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IanB wrote: Do we have any left-leaning libertarian academics on this board? That would fun. Er.. hello.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Nov 21, 2009, 15:53
Nov 21, 2009, 15:33
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mingtp wrote: IanB wrote: Do we have any left-leaning libertarian academics on this board? That would fun. Er.. hello. Hello yourself. Surely you don't mean Cope? He wants to get paid like everyone else. Otherwise why the constant monetisation of old catalogue and the eking out of archive material? No, that doesn't fit at all. He's better than that. He has a family. He knows what to means to need to get paid for what you create and what you own. A few hours of busking doth not a revolutionary solcialist make.
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Joolio Geordio 1300 posts |
Edited Nov 21, 2009, 17:11
Nov 21, 2009, 16:58
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thesweetcheat wrote: CD sales are declining, but partly this is industry, rather than customer, driven. The HMV chain now prioritises games and DVDs. Buyers who want CDs won't find them there anymore and CDs have become increasingly marginalised partly because of this lack of highstreet availability. I think its retail driven rather than music industry driven or consumer driven. The record companies major and independent alike are concerned that they CD sales are falling and they are being afforded less shelf space at retail. This reduction in shelf space is partly due to lack of compelling releases and partly due to retailers particularly the non traditional music retailers e.g. the supermarkets preferring to use that shelf space for something (could be video, could be games could be something non home entertainment related) which is a higher value item than a CD. As I said music companies large and small still want us to buy CD's and the fall in demand, be it due to lack of good artists or due to the large amount of illegal file sharing or friend to friend copying on CD-R concerns them as they haven't truly got to grips with the legal download world and put an effective digital distribution business model in place to replace the loss in sales from CD's. In 2007 in the UK CD Album sales fell by 30 million units vs. 2006 - while legal album download sales reached 6 million units.
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Joolio Geordio 1300 posts |
Nov 21, 2009, 17:10
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Robot Emperor wrote: Ignore the whole arse thing since it has obviously hit a nerve. What difference does it make to an artist financially wether one downloads files or buys recordings second hand or from a remainder bin? Well if you are buying a 2nd hand record you can do so in the knowledge that the artist has been paid following the original "new release" sale of the disc and that they have received some income for their work which is the UK is around 8% of the price to the retailer. Ok so they don't get paid again for a subsequent 2nd hand sale - but they have been paid once. If you are downloading illegally (and I am assuming you are talking about illegal downloading here) the artist doesn't get paid for these downloads - and obtains a fraction of the earnings from CD sales or legal downloads than they would have got if more people/fans had bought it legally in the first place.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Nov 21, 2009, 18:06
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Joolio Geordio wrote: Robot Emperor wrote: Ignore the whole arse thing since it has obviously hit a nerve. What difference does it make to an artist financially wether one downloads files or buys recordings second hand or from a remainder bin? Well if you are buying a 2nd hand record you can do so in the knowledge that the artist has been paid following the original "new release" sale of the disc and that they have received some income for their work which is the UK is around 8% of the price to the retailer. Ok so they don't get paid again for a subsequent 2nd hand sale - but they have been paid once. If you are downloading illegally (and I am assuming you are talking about illegal downloading here) the artist doesn't get paid for these downloads - and obtains a fraction of the earnings from CD sales or legal downloads than they would have got if more people/fans had bought it legally in the first place. Good to see some facts rather than conjecture. On a £10 cd (£10 retail price inc VAT) the artist can get anything between 50p and around £1.00 per disc after all deductions (discounts and packaging) depending on what their deal is like. That's after they have recouped their advances of course. There will be variations at both end of the scale but that's a pretty realistic spread though. 8% is actually closer to what the songwriter gets and that is 8.5% of the wholesale price. If you want to calculate it on retail price it is 6.5%.
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dodge one 1242 posts |
Nov 21, 2009, 18:49
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Ian, this post of yours is very well thought out and comprehensive. It obviously shows the sort of insight that can only be gleaned from a musicians point of view. It is the kind of post that i wish could be an easily accesible 'STICKY' type post. It's that relevant. I'll wait with baited breath for the rebuttals........ To be honest, i don't know why it's even worth my time to wade in on this issue. Those who have stepped over the line and become illegal down-loaders have allready justified it to themselves. They will not be convinced that they are doing anything wrong, or perhaps the real heart of the matter is that they just don't give a fuck. After all the world revolves around us all as individuals, right? It's all about ME. ENTITLEMENT. On that note, as you explained....who is 'OWED' anything? I've paid for every piece of music i own. I've pretty much given up on posting in the 'Sound-tracks of our lives' threads because, generally speaking, they read more as vanity lists to me than actual music that was purchased. There has been many times that i read those lists by various posters and thought to myself, Isn't that the same person who was only just recently explaining his or her near poverty existance? Yet is scrolling off every week, music that if actually purchased, would amount to Hundreds of dollars? If not Thousands? And i'm talking about recent releases too. It just doesn't add up. I own THOUSANDS of pieces of pysically purchased media. Even at that, i can't keep up with the obscurities folks rattle off so casually here. How many people here REALLY were around during the Krautrock era? Or owned all those BrainTicket/Popel Vooge/Can/etc....albums that folks "KNOW all ABOUT" these days? Really.... Whats to discuss about them, when most people have ever heard those records as pirated downloads at low Bit-rates on fucking Ipods for the most part? I've been collecting records since 1974....i KNOW how hard it is to procure those albums. Perhaps i was an idiot, should have waited for this era to just Cop 'em off a blog. But thats the point for me. I can't really discuss all those obscurities that i don't own. I COULD 'download' 'em i guess. But, like it should be....i don't want what i haven't paid for. And so, i shall remain un-informed and left behind......I won't own every single record by whomever......poor me. I don't own an IPOD or MP3 player. I have made a personal choice in that regard. I'm just NOT interested in the digital music world after a point. I did transition over to C.D.'s {finally} in 1998. Not because i nessasarily wanted too, but my prefered medium, L.P.'s more or less became extinct. But again....why would i want to listen to music at such compressed bit rates to begin with? That was DIGITAL to begin with. Of course the arguement is '' I can't hear the difference" or "Who cares?'' Well i can and do. I can live day to day without 10,000 low bitrate toons in my pocket. I wonder if people even understand about bit-rate compression. Just a short primer. An MP3 at maximum bit rate of 320 Kbps only represents about 80% of the original recorded signal. Go down to 190 Kbps, and your listening to the toon of your choice at approximately 50% retrograde from the original signal. Thats OK by you? How would your Spagetti sauce taste, Minus 50% of the ingrediants? Such are the acceptable COMPROMISES of the modern world. But hey.....YOU 'know' all about that Blue Cheer record you downloaded yesterday. Regarding that Analysis of illegal Downloading Vs. Actual purchases. I am sceptical of it's claims. I counter with claims by other sources that in the last 2 years 95 % of ALL music that was downloaded was ILLEGAL. 95 % ! This represents a loss to the HATED music 'INDUSTRY' a loss estimated at 48 BILLION {!!!} Pounds. http://drownedinsound.com/news/4136081-95-of-music-downloads-in-2008-were-illegal-dis-reacts-and-suggests-two-solutions I defer to Ian's post to explain the 'TRICKLE DOWN' effect that this has on all concerned. And to add to it.... How interesting to observe that as one poster put it...I just get all my music from on-line resources... Ok fine. But as some are so quick to ejaculate the 'The Fuck em's' 'The Cunts' {with what i comically envision with screwed up Johnny Rotten looking scowls on there faces.}and other assorted lovely expressions...leveled squarely at the "MUSIC INDUSTRY"....and picked and chosen from at that.... What is AMAZON or I-TUNES? That is of course if one actually patronizes them at all. Compraring second hand sales of Analog or Digital 'PHYSICAL' media to Illegally downloaded music? I've got to explain the difference? Strange days indeed. I've looked at the Blogs that some have posted here without a second thought. Loaded with current copyright material. "YES...but i just try it and buy it" The #'s don't add up.... Here in the USA at least...as the link i posted explains...Album sales fell 14% this year, following a 15% decline the year before. The article also claims CD sales to be at an all time low. Hard to be sure what that means. And then there are the sorts of comments that you are likely to read on these 'BLOGS'. "Please Mr. DickHead, could you post the latest release by " ......." in 320 Kbps or FLAC......Please?" "Your the Coolest" signed.....ENTITLED. Just a few thoughts on the Trickle down effect.... Ian was about as thorough as one can be with his informed insight. I can add to it somewhat from the viewpoint of a player/collector. Whats it cost to be a musician? And take it out on the road and try to eke out a living at it? Lets talk about some facts and figures there. I can speak to the costs of several items in the musicians world. A GOOD guitar. 2000 - 5000 dollars US A GOOD AMPLIFIER RIG. 3000 - 5000 dollars US Want tonal pallette? Various guitars and amps with specific sonic signatures? Multiples of figures cited. Microphones? A nuemann u-87? 3000 Dollars US. A nice RODE? 600 - 2000 dollars The better SHURE 'BETA's'? 300 and up.... A decent roadworthy mixing console....thousands. A decent roadworthy P.A. system?.....THOUSANDS. All the cords, line conditioners, pedals, tuners, etc.....THOUSANDS. The DRUMS and BASS guitars? See above. Transport to here and yonder? The hotel Bills? The shitty food, and time away from home....Schlepping all the gear around....and for most bands just try to break into the scene....leveraged to there eyeballs with Credit bills for said gear. The studio recording charges. Oh wait....you mean another start up INDIE label has gone under? Why? This one little ILLEGAL download won't go noticed....said the collective conscience of BILLIONS. I know that this little thought stream of mine is somewhat shambolic. And i won't argue my points of view with any of you. And i'll leave you to yours. Thanks again IAN, for saying it all far more eloquent than i am capable of. D1
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mojojojo 1940 posts |
Nov 21, 2009, 18:51
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I buy cds and records but I can't afford to buy everything I want. I still buy as many as I did before I had access to the internet so, sorry, where's the harm? I'm not downloading INSTEAD of buying. If I didn't do it I wouldn't have it, and in many cases I wouldn't hear the artist and wouldn't subsequently buy their records. Most stuff I download is new to me and generally impossible to buy anyway, but frankly if I spent all day downloading Mariah Carey, The Killers and Nirvana illegally, so fucking what? x
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mingtp 2270 posts |
Nov 21, 2009, 20:41
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dodge one wrote: I've pretty much given up on posting in the 'Sound-tracks of our lives' threads because, generally speaking, they read more as vanity lists to me than actual music that was purchased. There has been many times that i read those lists by various posters and thought to myself, Isn't that the same person who was only just recently explaining his or her near poverty existance? Yet is scrolling off every week, music that if actually purchased, would amount to Hundreds of dollars? If not Thousands? And i'm talking about recent releases too. It just doesn't add up. Dodge, I'm intrigued, was that aimed at me? Every entry on my SOOL posts is legit, bank-busting and legally purchased. I only post once a month or so on those threads and yes, that IS the reason why I'm known as 'ming the penniless' - because I spend every spare penny on music (or DJ equipment), and have done so for the last 25 years. In short, I can't speak for anyone else, but if you were referring to me, it does actually "add up". That's the whole thing about this debate - people see it in binary opposites - black or white - right or wrong - "crossing the line". We cannot pretend to know what goes on in people's minds when they download or buy music, and projecting or in-grouping / out-grouping or scapegoating is NOT a logical response to the millions of different circumstances behind individuals' actions. I thought psychological determinism was discredited a long time ago! I just can't agree that under any circumstance, an "illegal" download is always wrong. Ultimately bud, we're going to have to agree to disagree, but I do totally agree with your point a few pages back that a person's view on this issue is likely to by generationally related. Which might explain the draconian nature of the proposed law in the UK. "First they came for the file-sharers..." At the end of the day, I like the no.data.blogspot slogan: "For the major labels, it's over. It's fucking over. You're going to burn to the fucking ground, and we're all going to dance around the fire."
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machineryelf 3681 posts |
Nov 21, 2009, 21:11
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one explanation as to why cd sales are falling http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86390/music-sale-losses-due-to-gaming-dvds-not-p2p/ going on personal experience I'd say this seems about right
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mingtp 2270 posts |
Nov 21, 2009, 21:22
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machineryelf wrote: one explanation as to why cd sales are falling http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86390/music-sale-losses-due-to-gaming-dvds-not-p2p/ going on personal experience I'd say this seems about right Great article that.
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