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Unsung Forum » Fileshare and illegally download now! |
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Nov 22, 2009, 13:37
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By and large, your post is redolent of common sense. I can find nothing to quibble with here, so I won't.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Nov 22, 2009, 13:57
Nov 22, 2009, 13:49
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machineryelf wrote: dodge one wrote: THAT's 10 pieces of VINYL of 'BOOT-LEG' status that i own from the 1970's. I guess it completely Taint's the other 6990 or so other pieces of Media i bought with legitamate status. How that compares to a blog that uploads a brand-new release of an Artist and see's {What?} ......Thousands? of ILLEGAL DOWNLOADS that DAY.......and then goes viral to other BLOG sites..... IS COMPLETELY BEYOND ME. But yes.....i have NOT thought this through at all. because you only have ten illegal lps that doesn't compare to someone who has some downloads on his computer, let's see,how many towns does the US have http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=509183 25375, now in each of those towns there is one person who likes a band[s] enough to own 10 boot lps that makes 253,750 illegal lps at say 10$ a shot, that's $2,537,500 that isn't in the band[s] pockets yes it's just the same, I honestly can't see how it is COMPLETELY BEYOND YOU Well yes if we all ignore the grey areas it is just going to be an exercise in two sides posturing across the great divide of practical reality. Didn't the vinyl (and later cd) bootleg industry exist to becasue of additional fan demand? No one bought boots instead of legit recordings. You either bought just the legit albums or, if you knew where to get them, you bought both. Right? Meanwhile along side that there was the pirate industry where knock-offs of legit products were sold in lieu of the real thing. Setting aside the issue of whether an artist has the right to control people's access to warts-and-all material, there is a huge difference between say the torrents of live shows, studio outtakes and deleted material and the naked sharing of records that are readily commercially available. The former belongs in the realm of the old style bootlegger and the other is a digital ram-raid. If the music is available for sale there is absolutely no cultural, social, economic or political argument for sharing it in this way unless the rights owners or artist (if different) give their explicit permission. I never bought the home taping is killing music argument but there is a difference surely between someone taking an album that they have purchased and copying it for a friend or including a track or two on a mix tape and the same person taking the same recording and sharing it with everyone on the planet who can be assed to click "save as"? At least with Torrent sites you do get some measurable sense of responsibility among a closed community of member collectors. The wider world of illegal downloading is more like someone repeatedly driving a 4 x 4 into the window of HMV and saying "take what you like" .
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Nov 22, 2009, 13:50
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dodge one wrote: They all do there own thing. I can't speak with any authority about Synths...not my instrument. I do have a Stylo-Phone though. Its a little monophonic gadjet. Bowie used one on Space Oddity. Yeah, I've got one of those too! Remember Rolf Harris advertising them back in the 70s ... they sound pretty cool, in a retro-futurist kind of way.
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dodge one 1242 posts |
Nov 22, 2009, 13:51
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machineryelf wrote: dodge one wrote: THAT's 10 pieces of VINYL of 'BOOT-LEG' status that i own from the 1970's. I guess it completely Taint's the other 6990 or so other pieces of Media i bought with legitamate status. How that compares to a blog that uploads a brand-new release of an Artist and see's {What?} ......Thousands? of ILLEGAL DOWNLOADS that DAY.......and then goes viral to other BLOG sites..... IS COMPLETELY BEYOND ME. But yes.....i have NOT thought this through at all. because you only have ten illegal lps that doesn't compare to someone who has some downloads on his computer, let's see,how many towns does the US have http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=509183 25375, now in each of those towns there is one person who likes a band[s] enough to own 10 boot lps that makes 253,750 illegal lps at say 10$ a shot, that's $2,537,500 that isn't in the band[s] pockets yes it's just the same, I honestly can't see how it is COMPLETELY BEYOND YOU It's not really worth it, but i could, given the time, Knock these sorts of straw-man comparisons DOWN all day long. And not because i take an exceptional umbrage towards a particular member of this site. Certainly, for me at least, It's a stunner to find myself so isolated on this side of the arguement here. I 've posted on and off for about 2 years here. Lurked about 5 more years than that. To the best of my recollection, it's only been me or Ian thats taken any stand at all against the issue of what i personally will continue to call 'ILLEGAL DOWN-LOADING'. If people want to put a shine on a turd, by calling it 'FILE-SHARING' {has such a friendly lilt when you call it "SHARING"}..... Then that is one trend that i won't be jumping on. About your town/Bootleg per person comparison.... What was it you said about THINKING? I don't know about your particular social circle.....but mine is fairly assorted. And i can tell you for a fact, NO one that i know in my radius has anything approaching my collection. Much less BOOT LEG L.p.'s. In fact, i gave up YEARS ago, expecting or reacting with MOCK shock and horror that people didn't know who the fuck JULIAN COPE was....or any of Dozens others bands/artists that appeal to me. But if it gives you comfort to think that everyone in the USA has 10 bootleg LP's {or More} in there stash.....more power to you. I'd personally estimate more like about 2 % or less of our population. But even if you are correct, and your not, You truly are being completely dis-honest to say that the average person who ILLEGALLY downloads copy righted media...... Has got typically less than 100's of albums that way. Perhaps 1000's. How i am on the wrong side of this issue, is astonishing.
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Hunter T Wolfe 1708 posts |
Nov 22, 2009, 14:45
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dodge one wrote: I've pretty much given up on posting in the 'Sound-tracks of our lives' threads because, generally speaking, they read more as vanity lists to me than actual music that was purchased. There has been many times that i read those lists by various posters and thought to myself, Isn't that the same person who was only just recently explaining his or her near poverty existance? Yet is scrolling off every week, music that if actually purchased, would amount to Hundreds of dollars? If not Thousands? And i'm talking about recent releases too. It just doesn't add up. Speaking for myself, I'm a largely unpaid music journalist and PR companies send me free CDs of forthcoming releases, unsolicited, every week. That accounts for almost all of the new stuff I mention in my Soundtrack of our lives. I know I'm in a priviledged position and grateful for it. The music I like, I try to review or write a feature about somewhere, which is the deal. I think even writing a one-liner on HH about how much I like a CD I've been sent helps to express thanks, too- someone might investigate the release on my recomendation and even pay for it. Dodge, broadly I'm with you and Ian on this one. Though I do think that some sort of distinction should be made between downloading live, unavailable, radio session stuff free & illegally, and downloading the latest new release studio album without paying for it. In old school terms, it's the difference between bootleg LPs of live concerts, and pirate copies of new releases. I may once or twice have downloaded some 'bootleg' unavailable material that is not available for me to buy or pay for. I've never pirated an otherwise available album. I can't afford many new releases but tend to buy old vinyl from 2nd hand record stores and charity shops. Also it maybe says something about our culture of priveledge and waste that many new release CDs can be bought in charity shops for a fraction of their price within a year of release, people get bored with them so quickly. It's a complicated issue and the whole nature of the music industry is changing, the value of recorded music as such is being downgraded. I don't agree with stealing and I agree with musicians (and hey, even those evil capitalists who work in the offices getting the stuff out!) being paid for what they do. I also think that Pirate Bay as a news source on this story may ust be a tad biased and sensational. But- filsharing etc, right or wrong, is a reality the business is going to have to adapt to. You can't close the box.
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machineryelf 3681 posts |
Edited Nov 22, 2009, 16:28
Nov 22, 2009, 15:04
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http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&met=population&tdim=true&q=population+of+usa 2% of that = 6,081,195 at say 10 boots each that makes 60,810,195 at $10 a pop that means you & people like you have cost the US record industry $608,101,950 hang your heads in shame or maybe the record companies and you are making up figures to suit themselves I'm not having a dig at you here Dodge, I'm trying to get through to you that downloading is merely the tip of an iceburg, the music industry is going to have to rethink how it works, the bubble has burst, the genie is out of the bag, and ranting on about evil downloaders is a waste of time Just as a matter of interest what is your take on this, local band called Bong, I purchased the cds from the band, then I found that the band had put all the stuff up for free download, where does that leave me, feeling ripped off that something I paid for has been now made free No, I'm glad that they might get a wider audience, next year they are playing Roadburn, hopefully the year after they'll conquer the world All power to the net as far as I'm concerned The net has done far more to help the bands I like than it has to hinder I've seen crowds for the likes of doom increase 1000% because people now get to hear this stuff, the local scene in Newcastle has probably always been thriving but now I know about it because of the net swings & roundabouts, and moaning about illegal d/l makes no difference, I didn't buy Mariah Carey cds before downloading, I'm not downloading them now
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machineryelf 3681 posts |
Edited Nov 22, 2009, 16:04
Nov 22, 2009, 15:20
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IanB wrote: I never bought the home taping is killing music argument but there is a difference surely between someone taking an album that they have purchased and copying it for a friend or including a track or two on a mix tape and the same person taking the same recording and sharing it with everyone on the planet who can be assed to click "save as"? what is the difference? numbers, how many folk if they didn't have that cd availabe at a click would buy it, surely a big a problem as the net are cds are so easy to copy that they pose as much as a problem, perfect copy every time in less time than ever, look at the arse the record companies made trying to combat that problem There is so much opposing info flying around that you can fit the facts and figures to suit your viewpoint Simple fact is the business model has got to change, if that means that Simon Cowell ends up ruling the world so be it how does Jazz, classical, peruvian nose flute music survive, Brass Bands, choral , it's not all grant supported, so obviously there are ways and means, how did they survive in the 60s when the underground really was underground, how does a band like Isis,Red Sparowes, The Meteors [insert name of mildly successful band here] survive and to get back where this thread started how does using a big blunt stick to beat the internet innocent help. What happens when they shut down all the sites and find surprise! All the kids are spending their pocketmoney on COD6 and going to see Twilight
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thesweetcheat 6214 posts |
Nov 22, 2009, 18:09
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dodge one wrote: Good luck with that then....it's not something that i will ever have to worry about. Until they find your bootleg LPs D1. I believe there is a clear difference between pirating currently available material and downloading live, etc stuff of poor quality that will never be released commercially. The proposed law does not agree with this view, nor do you. So we're not going to agree on this one. This could run for ever and I'm not really bothered about falling out with anyone over it (especially someone on the other side of the Atlantic). Alken
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thesweetcheat 6214 posts |
Nov 22, 2009, 18:26
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mingtp wrote: machineryelf wrote: one explanation as to why cd sales are falling http://www.zeropaid.com/news/86390/music-sale-losses-due-to-gaming-dvds-not-p2p/ going on personal experience I'd say this seems about right Great article that. Yes, seconded.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Nov 22, 2009, 19:26
Nov 22, 2009, 18:44
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We will have to agree to differ. The musics you describe survived in recorded form because they were either profitable or, if not directly profitable, then they were a politcally or culturally desirable part of a wider corporate or social strategy. It was never a charity. There was always a wider purpose. Warners bent over backwards to sign a mediocre seller like Miles (a mediocre seller by early 80s standards) from under Sony's nose because they knew it would please Prince and it would make it easier to attract other interesting artists who admired Miles' music. It might even tempt a really big hitter like Michael Jackson to make the switch from Sony. That was the strategy. Bob Krasnow (he of Elektra records) used to say that while he didn't much care for Motley Crue's music their profits made it possible to invest in Nonesuch and to spend money on interesting artists who needed time and nurturing over a series of records. There was money for music that was neither instantly understandable by a mass audience nor part of the rock and pop zeitgist. There was money for art music, there was money for artists to make that music and for it to be heard. This is what we are losing. That's what has all but gone. And yet the cool kids, like a new generation of dot.com investors, still insist that there is a new dawn over yonder if we just keep our filling our fat little faces with free music. Well, like the dot.com investors, the cool kids are going to get the new business model they deserve and have in the process all but fucked the future of large areas of recorded music as an art form and as a vibrant creative force to a degree that Warner, Sony, EMI and Universal never had on their agenda let alone within their power. Of course recorded music will survive but there are forms of recorded music that wont get the investment and the exposure they deserve. That is what this cultural rampage will cost us as listeners and as music lovers.
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