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the dog 40 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 17:42
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this is a contiuation of what I started in the village pump.It doe'nt matter who you vote for, the government still gets in.. has anyone got any sollutions on how to get over this dilemma? or even opinionate on my so called nihhalistic tendences?
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 17:57
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the dog wrote: this is a contiuation of what I started in the village pump.It doe'nt matter who you vote for, the government still gets in.. has anyone got any sollutions on how to get over this dilemma? or even opinionate on my so called nihhalistic tendences? I don't think any sane person could disagree that (probably all) politicians are a bunch of selfish corrupt bastards and that the system pretty damn stinks but you sort of alluded to 'the revolution' without saying yourself what that might mean. Perhaps that's why some (me included) has often fond the counter argument to the status quo too entrenched in ideals and not enough ideas, but that doesn't mean I'm happy with the world. So, have YOU an agenda in mind? ☺ x
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 18:09
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I don't think you're being nihilistic. I just think you're exhibiting a perfectly understandable weariness with the apparent inability of our democracies to actually represent us. But it does matter who you vote for. It's very unlikely you'll get everything you want from any particular candidate, but it matters. There will never be a 'perfect candidate' in this imperfect world. But you know as well as I that there are complete bastards who are working night and day to seize more and more power away from us. Unless you get out and vote for AT LEAST the lesser of two evils, you are empowering the worse of them by your self-omission in the process. I think some people are of the opinion that a vote for an imperfect solution is akin to selling one's soul. I think that's a very extreme position to take. It's an all-or-nothing philosophy. There is no shame in casting a strategic vote. And afterwards, when the less odious candidate wins, there is no reason why pressure cannot continue to be applied for reform. My argument is that an Obama White House will be more open to it than a McCain White House.
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the dog 40 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 19:40
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you talk about the lesser of two evils, which still makes your vote a vote for evil or simply the wrong vote. The worst antagonist is the world bank, or banks in general. The only way capitalism works is by expoloitation of the masses. the best way for the banks to control thier interests is to control the governments. In a so called free and deoocratic society, it is not able to have the control that a dictatorship can without mass rebellion, therefore control has to be sought by other means. Money or wealth is the carrot to attain this control. If you can convince the masses that they can have all they need plus all they could ever want, providing that they join the capitalism bandwagon,then you give them something, that once tasted, they will never want to be without,, regardless of the people being exploited. This concept has been used to buy governments with the banks promising vast profits if money is invested in extracting all mineral resourses from all country's that have them. Once the resources have been established, a market for using them is then created, and by making a profit as the resources pass from hand to hand the banks get wealthier and wealthier. so where does it go from there? It gets passed on to the consumer who willingly pays the banks who look after thier money, for a profit, and the circle goes on and on. The real winners in this circle are the banks.All power is unequivically conected to money and the banks have it all. Smash the banks, regain control of our own lives and give the world back to the people.... A solution that is impossible to atain as the concept has taken us all over as we lay down and accept it.Stand up and fight the system in whatever way, no matter how insignificant, that you can. Peaceandlove from a reluctant capitalist..
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 21:26
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the dog wrote: you talk about the lesser of two evils, which still makes your vote a vote for evil or simply the wrong vote. Are you saying we shouldn't bother voting, or vote for a candidate that we know will only catch a single digit percentage? Either way, it only serves the greater of the two evils. the dog wrote: The worst antagonist is the world bank, or banks in general. Not disputing that. the dog wrote: Smash the banks, regain control of our own lives and give the world back to the people.... A solution that is impossible to attain as the concept has taken us all over as we lay down and accept it. Stand up and fight the system in whatever way, no matter how insignificant, that you can Smash the banks? Do we go back to a barter system? How many of us could survive in such a world? How many of can grow our own food? Do we have anything to trade? How many of us would starve in such a scenario? How many of us would be landless, destitute? The actual difference between our perception of how bad things are and how truly atrocious they could be is a disconnect that I don't think most people can, or want to, contemplate. Freedom... what does that mean in the context of your proposal? Freedom to be cast into uncertainty, back-breaking labor, crumbling civilization? I realize that Capitalism is responsible for some parts of the world being like this now. Is that the fault of Capitalism in general, or is it the fault of deregulating the system and allowing it to rampage it's way across the world unfettered? Obama's agenda is to regain some oversight over the banks and make sure that the bankers aren't allowed to threaten the world with impunity. Even if he only gets some of what he promises done, that's a step in the right direction. I have to agree with Shanshee... valiant rhetoric about revolution has to be matched with real plans for the aftermath, or it's all just wind.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 21:36
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Plato went over all this a while ago. ;) Having analysed every possible system he concluded an enlightened dictatorship was the only satisfactory system but that, given human nature, that was unattainable. Churchill said democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried. But he also said the best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. All that sounds very much to me as if the problem is us. If we have power we become corrupt and if we don't we're too stupid (or lazy or greedy) to elect enlightened leaders. There's a fair chance Obama will lose because he's portrayed as a S.......ist. As if that's a bad thing. How ignorant is that? Rampant Capitalism unsoftened by a touch of liberalism and sharing of wealth is a monster. And the same people who throw up their hands at the very thought of spreading wealth are the same ones that are enthusiastic Christians. Eeedjits.
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PMM 3155 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 21:42
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So who do you intend to vote for at the next UK election Nigel?
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 21:51
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I'm old and remember the Tories. I think we should never, ever let them in again. I wish the number of people that remember them wasn't reducing year by year. As I've mentioned, I've voted Tactical anti-Conservative all my life, right from the age of ten when my mother sneaked me in to the polling booth to put my cross and cancel out my father's Tory vote. ;)
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PMM 3155 posts |
Edited Oct 23, 2008, 22:11
Oct 23, 2008, 22:09
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I'm just as old and I remember the tories too. New Labour really aren't that different, and when the tories win the next election, (and they will, because millions of people will see them as the lesser of two evils) they're not going to do things much differently. I suppose they might try to crack down on illegal immigrants, or build lots of new prisons, or privatise everything that isn't nailed down or perhaps try to introduce identity cards. You know what? I was extremely wary of stepping back onto this particular merry-go-round, but here's how it is. You guys really fucking depress me. Your argument is utterly defeatist. All you have to say is "There's no point fighting. We just have to take whatever shit is coming to us." But more than that. You don't just passively advocate acceptance of the status quo, you belittle and condemn anyone that refuses to toe the line. I thought this board was about more than that.
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 22:10
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nigelswift wrote: I'm old and remember the Tories. I think we should never, ever let them in again. Absoloutely. It's not just about 'Thatcher' either, as is the counter argument some of the time. It's to do with what they stand for, have always stood for, and always will stand for. Buch of detestable, elitist, old school tie bastards. If it means voting for 'Gordon Brown' then so fucking be it, end of. x
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