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Moon Cat 9577 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 11:01
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PMM wrote: I'm just as old and I remember the tories too. New Labour really aren't that different, and when the tories win the next election, (and they will, because millions of people will see them as the lesser of two evils) they're not going to do things much differently. I suppose they might try to crack down on illegal immigrants, or build lots of new prisons, or privatise everything that isn't nailed down or perhaps try to introduce identity cards. You know what? I was extremely wary of stepping back onto this particular merry-go-round, but here's how it is. You guys really fucking depress me. Your argument is utterly defeatist. All you have to say is "There's no point fighting. We just have to take whatever shit is coming to us." But more than that. You don't just passively advocate acceptance of the status quo, you belittle and condemn anyone that refuses to toe the line. I thought this board was about more than that. Please don't take this the wrong way as this is a genuine query. What are you doing and what do you advise that we do then?
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 11:10
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I sort of hate politicians too much to not vote, if ye get me. If you want to effect change then do it, or begin talking about not just what should be done but what you would do about it, don't just throw it up as an abstract and not even care where it lands. It's too easy, and will make your life far more comfortable than it should be. If voting for the system makes you defeatist, WTF does that do? x
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the dog 40 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 12:47
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If you want to see an example of how we are being manipulated into a politically inert species, check out anything to do woth the Bilderberg group. Some people, mostly conspiracy theorists, are extreemly vocal about this group, but make your own minds up on what it's all about. It seems that the addage of no smoke without fire might suit this group, especially when looking at the world as it appears today.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 13:37
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It's no big secret that the rich want to get richer. But it's also no secret that deregulation of the banking 'industry' has been the catalyst that's led to the current meltdown. The problem with 'smashing the banks', as you put it, is that most of us would be devastated by such an action. Completely bringing down the system would be catastrophic for all but the well-positioned... the rich, and the self-sustaining farmland owners. The rest of us would end up starving to death in the dark. For better or for worse, banks are an integral part of our very livelihoods. I do think that they should be HEAVILY regulated.
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the dog 40 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 13:57
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you do not make much sense at all. you seem to prefer one evil over another, which still makes your views evil. the revolution is to break the banking system, bring on the revolution, smash the system of mind control.. I know yu would not like that because you have been well and truly corrupted by the system and start cacking your pants at the thought that you cant exist without it. You're just a conformist wuss, with no thought for the future of mind controlled existance that we are already slowly absorbing into the everyday being of mankind..
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 14:00
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I do think that they should be HEAVILY regulated. I suspect the poisonous root that needs treating systemically is the incentive system - and that exists not just at the top but the whole way through. If you're going to be handsomely rewarded for this year's performance you have a reason to think only of the short term bottom line. The industry will squeal like piggies about any suggestion of making incentives based on a longer period but actually there's no valid reason that system wouldn't work just as well for the individual and far better for the organisation and the rest of us.
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stray 2057 posts |
Edited Oct 24, 2008, 14:36
Oct 24, 2008, 14:26
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Conformist Wuss ? And.. you're what exactly ? A ranting armchair anarchist or nihilist ? Personally, I'm cheering the collapse of capitalism from the sidelines here. We can rely on capitalism to have these convulsions, revolutions happen, once the conditions are right. In reality though, you can't live outside the system, we don't all have nice little freeholdings that make us self sustainable, nor can we have them either. Nor do most of us have the skills to run them succesfully. Heh, 'Year zero' anyone ? WE can all go 'WAHH!!! evil money men, kill, destroy' etc, its hardly insightful or useful right ? I'm a big fan of Nihilism myself, however I too shy away from the pain it will cause my fellow man. That doesn't make me a conformist wuss either, it makes me compassionate. Thing is that as far as I'm concerned everything is just going to get worse, therefore our job is to make the landing into the new capitalist system less painful than it could be. I'm under no illusions here, a new version of capitalism is on its way, 'Regulation' is the main word that will excuse it. Regulation can, and probably will, lead to what old revolutionaries once described as 'State Capitalism', which isn't a good thing. You cannot choose to not take part in it, 'the man' will drop a bill for something thru your front door eventually. Revolutions, fundamental change, only happens when there is a party or group of people with the ideas and the structure that can replace the shit we currently live under. Even as a nihilist I accept that. So... join one, form one, give us a genuine new economy/approach that we can transition to with as little pain as possible. There are plenty of old models out there such as socialism, communism, the many flavours of Anarchism (collectivist, individualist etc), hell even libertarianism. All of them have their flaws, all of them rely on becoming fully International systems in order to function. 'Fuck you, got mine' is not the natural state of people, well , maybe in the US it is ;). Definitely not here though, I was shocked at seeing polls and interviews with people in the street (here in the UK) saying Nationalising the banks was a good idea, if it means we get the profits instead of the banks. How common is this sentiment in the rest of europe I dunno ? In the US ? it seems you just have to say the word 'socialism' or, even better, 'European socialism' (no idea what the fuck that is but I think I want it) for people to start foaming at the mouth. Anyroad, the government ownership of the banks I definitely see as a step forward, sort of a communism by stealth. Its how the IMF decide how each state can be allowed to manage them, and how they will be forcible rebuilt into a shadow of the current 'free market(s)' (plural as not every national market functioned under the same rules anyhow, thats really, really, important in understanding how we got here) thats going to be interesting. Its in the making of those decisions where we need to make an effort to make our voice heard. This is a good discussion to have, I think, but then again, it'll probably degenerate into some cod psychology bollocks about human nature anytime now. T'would be nice to keep it set in something approaching reality or, more importantly, obtainable. edit tl;dr. Lets keep a close eye on these fuckers while they rebuild their shit and make sure that its more to all our benefit next time round.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 14:51
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We've degenerated into name calling already? I don't think I'm being a 'conformist wuss' in requesting something a bit more substantial than your fuzzy rhetoric. If you can't provide more than platitudes, don't sling insults! Come back when you've figured out what we should do other than make grandiose statements.
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Moon Cat 9577 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 16:45
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the dog wrote: you do not make much sense at all. you seem to prefer one evil over another, which still makes your views evil. the revolution is to break the banking system, bring on the revolution, smash the system of mind control.. I know yu would not like that because you have been well and truly corrupted by the system and start cacking your pants at the thought that you cant exist without it. You're just a conformist wuss, with no thought for the future of mind controlled existance that we are already slowly absorbing into the everyday being of mankind.. What. The. Fuck?!!! I'm hoping that you're a bit pissed or something here Dog. Telling people that are essentially on your side that their views are "evil"? That they've been 'corrupted by the system'. Hell yeah! Whatever... You offer platitudes and rhetoric and fuck all else. If you want I can go and find some windmills for you to tilt at. I tell you what, if you're the face of the revolution pal, I'll take my chances with the ballot box.
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the dog 40 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 19:36
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hey mooncat, what I've been saying is that we have all been corrupted into believing that the only way we can exist is to follow the capitalistic route, which personally, I find completely evil. The reason for this is that by complying with the ethos of capitalism, the rich get richer and the poor....etc, etc. in other words we just carry on with the only route that is on offer, comply or be dammed. That is what I find evil, and by supporting that evil we are all responsible for the exploitation of those that can't join the game. There is an alternative to this, which is the bartering system. I have been practicing this for over 40 years, and although I have not made any noticable difference to society as a whole, I have made a difference to some of the people I have done work for. I am a plumber by trade and a general builder for the most part. If someone with little money wnts me to change a tap washer, for instance, my fee is a cup of tea and a biscuit if they are available, no call out fee, no charge. This is just one example of many. I spend a reasonable amount of time each year in the pyrenees, on a goat farm where I work for food and a room, nothing else. while down there I will do odd jobs for other local small holding farmers and get paid for that work with cheese, meat and sometimes honey, that I then share with the people I stay with. This is my ethos and I try and stick to it where I can. That said, I am also a capitaist, or I would not be able to survive living in london, paying my bills etc. So the capitalistc side of me charges just under the going rate to those who can afford it. There is more than one way to live in this money hungry world we live in and I am doing my best not to turn into a complete breadhead. I could be earning a hell of a lot more than I am, but, for me, that is just the sort of exploitation that I abhor.I would love a huge revolution to break the cycle of the monetary system, but I am too insignificant to do that. I grumble and groan, but the only peace of mind I get is from following my own ethics. to quote from one of my own poems, wot I rote in 1978.. "Can't you see that life in this world's dying,Millions of people starving to death, Money hungry bankers, what a bunch of wankers, Grabbing, stealing, taking all of what we've got left"... Time has not changed these sentiments and I have only seen things get worse. If I come accross as a windbag with no substance then so fucking what. I live my life the way I want to, and hopefully along the way put a smile on some peoples faces. Peaceandlove and bollox to the evil system Moon Cat wrote: [quote="the dog"]you do not make much sense at all. you seem to prefer one evil over another, which still makes your views evil. the revolution is to break the banking system, bring on the revolution, smash the system of mind control.. I know yu would not like that because you have been well and truly corrupted by the system and start cacking your pants at the thought that you cant exist without it. You're just a conformist wuss, with no thought for the future of mind co existance that we are already slowly absorbing into the everyday being of mankind..[/quote]What. The. Fuck?!!! I'm hoping that you're a bit pissed or something here Dog. Telling people that are essentially on your side that their views are "evil"? That they've been 'corrupted by the system'. Hell yeah! Whatever... You offer platitudes and rhetoric and fuck all else. If you want I can go and find some windmills for you to tilt at. I tell you what, if you're the face of the revolution pal, I'll take my chances with the ballot box.[/quote]
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