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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 22:16
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detestable, elitist, old school tie bastards. If it means voting for 'Gordon Brown' then so fucking be it, end of. Quite. It's not a referendum on how bad New Labour is/was/will be. It's about betting that one lot might have a spark of unselfishness and idealism and knowing, for certain, that the other lot, at base, don't have a spark of compassion. There IS a difference.
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 22:24
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"You guys really fucking depress me. Your argument is utterly defeatist. All you have to say is "There's no point fighting. We just have to take whatever shit is coming to us." But more than that. You don't just passively advocate acceptance of the status quo, you belittle and condemn anyone that refuses to toe the line." Not me guv. Show me a cure and I'll go for it. But I haven't seen a realistic cure here. As Dave says, no banks = chaos and starvation. Revolution means the same plus tyrranny to boot. So what's left? I don't know but people can hardly be blamed for not wanting those two cures.
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 22:25
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nigelswift wrote: Quite. It's not a referendum on how bad New Labour is/was/will be. It's about betting that one lot might have a spark of unselfishness and idealism and knowing, for certain, that the other lot, at base, don't have a spark of compassion. There IS a difference. Oh but they got a green tree for a logo now, so... Sorry, but when it comes to this softened attitude some have developled re the very scumbag nature of the Tories I feel like cracking skulls!! Vote for Vince bloody Cable even or rather the other twat what took over, anything but NOT THEM! KEEP YERSELF HUMAN FFS!! x
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 22:29
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"Vote Anti-Tory, KEEP YERSELF HUMAN FFS!!" I might just put that in my window!
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the dog 40 posts |
Oct 23, 2008, 23:22
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all that is confirming what I said at the start in the village pump, It does'nt matter who you vote for, the government still gets in. Capitalism has brought the masses into the centers for making money, advocating breeding, thereby having more people to sell stuff to and get into debt and ultimately the banks have more control.. The revolution I want to see taking over the wealthy nations is self sufficiency. Get back to the fields, grow your own food, swap what you have an excess of for other things you need, barter/trade or whatever you want to call it.What sort of a life is it when we sit at a mechanical box to be entertained or communicate, which only cuts us off from real face to face contact and entertainment. We have been seduced into believing that what we are doing now is what the 21st century should be about, I believe that is wrong. We have lost family values, wisdom of our elders and a disregard for each other outside our little world. The most happiest people I've ever met were also the most finacialy poorest,but the most emotionally richest.I will not vote for ideology I don't believe or trust just to stop another ideology I don't believe or trust, thats just hypocracy in blinkers. If you believe in yourself then do what suits you, thats what I'm doing, and so far, I've stuck to my guns, not chopped and changed like some, just to go with the flow. I might be wrong, but I don't give a flying fuk, I'm a happy bunny with my decisions and I hope you are happy with yours, whatever they might be.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 00:18
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PMM wrote: You guys really fucking depress me. Your argument is utterly defeatist. All you have to say is "There's no point fighting. We just have to take whatever shit is coming to us." But more than that. You don't just passively advocate acceptance of the status quo, you belittle and condemn anyone that refuses to toe the line. I thought this board was about more than that. I've taken my share of flak for defending my position re: helping Obama kick the Republicans out. Some of that flak has come in the form of being called a sellout, basically, which sounds kinda belittling and condemning, ya know? It might feel good to take an uncompromising revolutionary stance, but unless there's solid support for it, and a viable system to follow, it's just banter. There is no brimming cusp of major revolution happening in the USA. It's a feeble murmer on the larger national stage. It cannot be counted on to deliver the goods. I'm tired of endlessly fantasizing about dream governments. Look at many of the nations that did have revolutions.... China, Argentina... they're just as snared by the realities of money as anywhere else. I guess what I'm trying to say is, yes, be idealistic, but leaven it with the understanding that there are some things that can actually be accomplished, and tho they don't live up to the stellar standards of our imaginations, they are REAL STEPS FORWARD. Baby steps, maybe, but steps. Stubborn refusals to engage in the larger body politic towards shared goals, how does that advance anything? I find no glory in being a self-satisfied political dreamer that's always on the losing end of elections. To dismiss everyone but the most idealistic as being 'depressing' doesn't help matters either.
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PMM 3155 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 01:39
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handofdave wrote: I've taken my share of flak for defending my position re: helping Obama kick the Republicans out. Some of that flak has come in the form of being called a sellout, basically, which sounds kinda belittling and condemning, ya know? It might feel good to take an uncompromising revolutionary stance, but unless there's solid support for it, and a viable system to follow, it's just banter. There is no brimming cusp of major revolution happening in the USA. It's a feeble murmer on the larger national stage. It cannot be counted on to deliver the goods. I'm tired of endlessly fantasizing about dream governments. Look at many of the nations that did have revolutions.... China, Argentina... they're just as snared by the realities of money as anywhere else. I guess what I'm trying to say is, yes, be idealistic, but leaven it with the understanding that there are some things that can actually be accomplished, and tho they don't live up to the stellar standards of our imaginations, they are REAL STEPS FORWARD. Baby steps, maybe, but steps. Stubborn refusals to engage in the larger body politic towards shared goals, how does that advance anything? I find no glory in being a self-satisfied political dreamer that's always on the losing end of elections. To dismiss everyone but the most idealistic as being 'depressing' doesn't help matters either. Well, to take your points in order... I don't think you're a sell-out. But I do think you're wrong. I do understand your argument, but I don't accept it. Secondly, I'm not taking an uncompromising revolutionary stance. And certainly I find this particular debate, in all its endless repititions anything but fun. It's pretty tiresome and frustrating. Can you please show me where I've suggested that I want to abolish money? I have no recollection of calling for any such thing. I'm well aware that there is no effective revolutionary movement in the US or elsewhere. I'm also familiar enough with history to know that no revolution will lead to utopia. You repeatedly tell me I'm a utopian. Again, please provide a link... I don't believe the baby steps you prescribe are an adequate response to the problems facing the world. We just don't have time. Unfortunately, most people subscribe to your way of thinking, so nothing will get done. So we're probably fucked and hundreds of millions of people will starve to death. Sorry if you put thjat down to me being a self satisfied political dreamer. To be honest, I find such statements indicate that you really don't understand what I'm talking about. This isn't some stupid debating society game. Peak oil is here. Climate change is here. There's no point tinkering with the way things are. We need radical change, and there's no way we're going to get it. And that's because most people think the way you do. You and most people propose that the only solution is to continue to vote for centre right parties, to stop other centre right parties getting into power. I must admit, that's really pretty depressing.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Edited Oct 24, 2008, 04:55
Oct 24, 2008, 03:46
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PMM, if you have some workable ideas as to how to radicalize hundreds of millions of people overnight without creating an even bigger mess, I'd love to hear it. I hate to put it this way... your ideals and morals are right on, but without the methods to back them up, achievable results on a meaningful scale are going to be few and far between. And without offering a detailed vision of what will supplant what we have now, you're only preaching to the choir. Perhaps we're all wrong and you are right. I doubt you'd take much pleasure in being vindicated. I'm tired of going over this myself, but mainly because I've heard plenty about how the world is going to hell, but few suggestions about how to actually, realistically correct it to the standards you hold. You state most people are wrong and you are right. That may be true, but it's going to sound elitist to the vast majority. You understand, I am sure, that most people are not going to respond favorably to hearing themselves being called sheep. Those ears are going to tune out to your message if they perceive you to be a didactic scold. If you want to change the world, you'll need to find some other method. Meanwhile, I'm going to vote Obama for all the reasons I've enumerated already. I'm not going to let you make me feel 'wrong' for doing so. If someone else wants to throw a vote to McCain by voting Nader, so be it. There's a time to talk about high ideals, and then there's a time to do or die. This is that time. The election is in less than two weeks. Obama can win, but it's too soon to get complacent about it. McCain could still take the White House. None of us wants that, I am certain. Lastly, this is not a UK election. It's a US election. I wouldn't dream of telling any of my UK friends how to vote, but everyone seems qualified to lend an opinion in US elections. Granted, what happens to the US has a ripple effect on the rest of the world. But it's just a tad arrogant to tell tens of millions who want positive change that they are sadly delusional. And I'm not keen on hearing how I should ignore strategic reality to maintain some kind of noble political purity. That sort of thinking just gets you killed, metaphorically speaking. (in a real war it wouldn't be a metaphor).
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Edited Oct 24, 2008, 09:57
Oct 24, 2008, 09:14
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PMM wrote: Peak oil is here. Climate change is here. There's no point tinkering with the way things are. We need radical change, and there's no way we're going to get it. And that's because most people think the way you do. C'mon PMM are you going to give up your car, etc? Or is it the job of others to do these things so you can 'by proxy'? I'll vote anti-Tory as Nigelswift puts it full well in the knowledge that it still ain't ideal and this place is still a shit hole for many, but I see it as necessary because I have a clear idea in my head of how catastrophic they would be so I am actually 'doing something'. It seems you're reducing the whole fecking lot to 'something has to be done'. If you can suggest something, however unpleaseant it may seem to others, then say so. Otherwise it doesn't really come across as meaning anything. Why can't you see that? x
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Oct 24, 2008, 10:24
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"something has to be done" So which shall we choose, Eco-persuasion or Eco-compulsion - bearing in mind most people won't stand for either? All that's left is hoping things won't be too bad because market forces will reduce consumption (though not enough) and voting for the least-worst government in the meantime. Not sure why believing the above should attract criticism, it's not as if anyone is happy about it. Show me a better hole and I'll go there, but do show it to me.
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