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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Sep 23, 2004, 22:06
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It will not be long before a side of beef will be grown in a test tube. With no brain involved will it be wrong to eat meat then? I suppose this will depend upon the resources needed to produce it. Will it take the food off six plates to create a steak for one?
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PMM 3155 posts |
Sep 24, 2004, 00:18
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3559542.stm http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1111/is_1845_308/ai_112796599
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baza 1308 posts |
Sep 24, 2004, 15:23
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All of our friends across the pond must have seen this by now: http://www.themeatrix.com/
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baza 1308 posts |
Sep 25, 2004, 10:16
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As you all should know - Julian Cope is a vegetarian. That's why I feel comfortable about pressing the issue on this forum. Here's a couple of links to articles on these pages: http://www.headheritage.co.uk/uknow/features/index.php?id=7 http://www.headheritage.co.uk/uknow/features/index.php?id=45 ....and there's more. Baz
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Sep 25, 2004, 18:21
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OK folks, I was away all last week and what with the catch-up I've only had chance to dip me toe in at HH until today. Forgive the progrock length of this post, but it's responding to quite a lot of the posts on this thread all atm once, which seems more sensible than doing a dozen little ones. The idea that we shouldn't condemn people for eating meat cos it's their personal choice doesn't stand up. We judge lots of people on their personal choices. If I did to a cat or dog what a meat farmer does to a pig I'm sure lots of people would (rightly) vilify me for it. Riddley's idea that there's some fundamental difference between 'those who eat meat but are basically trying to be kind and good people and those that enjoy killing animals and watching them suffer for its own sake' is an attempt at defending of wilful ignorance. It doesn't take much thought or research to realise that animal farming is inherantly cruel to animals, and so those who are 'trying to be kind' whilst needlessly paying people to be cruel are as indefensible as those who enjoy the cruelty. Daminxa's point about people caring for animals but not humans would only make sense if that were true of all - or at least a serious proportion of - people who don't eat meat. That is not the case. (In my experience those who abstain from meat have an above average concern for human welfare). Daminxa's point that 'farming of grain and veg destroys natural woodland and meadow habitats' is especially pertinant. A great proportion of arable farming is to produce fodder for animals. It takes around 14 kilos of wheat protein in cattle feed to make 1 kilo of protein in the beef. The rest is wasted (shat out to contaminate waterways). Almost half the world's grain harvest is fed to animals. The driving force behing Amazon deforestation is the clearance of land to grow soya for cattle feed, and the ranching of those beef cattle. The less animal products we eat, the less land is cultivated for our sustenance. This is actually my main reason for being vegan. There are, of course, other factors in a food's level of damage. The more processed a foodstuff is, the further it has travelled, the methods of production used to grow it - these all play a part, and so simple veggie-ness certainly isn't harm-free. But it definitely goes a long way. And here we come to another important point Daminxa touches on; it's not a zero-sum game. Any improvement in your behaviour as a citizen of the planet is a good thing. There is no way to live without damage, and in our society there's no way to live without doing some awfully unsustainable things. But that doesn't mean we should do nothing. In the same way that just cos not all your food is home-grown organic doesn't mean there's no point buying organic or cutting down on food miles, so it is that just cos Daminxa wears leather and eats eggs and dairy doesn't - despite Dam's claim - mean it's no better than being a full-on carnivore. By using less animal products you're causing less land to be cultivated and less animals to suffer. Thinking it's got to be an all-or-nothing trip is simply wrong. And it's incredibly disempowering, too. It leads to outbursts at peole who think otherwise ('So all meat eaters are total bastards?', 'Is every member of your family a vegan?'), which discourage others from making the changes in their lives that really do make a difference.
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Sep 25, 2004, 18:21
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i'm not sure what's meant by 'it's not realisitic to expect everyone to go vegetarian'. It's certainly not realistic to thnk we can carry on consuming meat at this rate. In its context the phrase was used as a way to defend meat-eating as a matter of personal choice, even though we all agree that argument doesn't apply to fox hunting. Yet our choice deprives other people of their choice. Meat-eating at the level we do it is utterly unsustainable. Such a diet requires too much land, too much water and too much finite resources to ever be available to the many. It is the priviliege of the few, it deprives the poor of the world of their food, (all through the Ethiopian famine of the 80s we were importing their produce as animal feed). The overwhelming majority of people eat far less meat than us westerners. We have a vast choice in our diet. We do not need to eat animal products. Those who eat meat do it simply because they want to, never because they need to. As such, the *need* to eat meat is not greater than the need to go fox hunting. It's simply the killing of an animal for human pleasure. Lemon's suggestion that fox hunting is different because it only results in a dead fox is wrong. It results in a dead fox and people enjoying the result. A steak involves a dead cow and people enjoying the result. Neither need to do it. Daminxa raises the question of life-saving medicines; that's another issue, because it introduces the necessity element. The 'third way' element of humane farming has a little merit, but not much. Certianly, the idea that it is 'possible to rear farm animals without them suffering' is untrue. And certainly, present farming methods do not allow anything of the kind. Killing an animal long before the end of its natural life is cruel. And that's before we go into universal practices even in supposed 'compassionate' farming like killing the 50% of chicks that are male cos they won't grow up to lay eggs, or the taking of male calves from their mothers for slaughter or veal production, or the refusal of the RSPCA to act against it's 'Freedom Food' farmers who contain and abuse animals. Animal farming necessarily means treating animals as commodity. There are certainly degrees of severity, but all of it is inherantly cruel, especially as it is only done to provide us with luxury foods. And this still doesn't touch the fact that by whatever method, animal rearing takes colossal quantites of feed, land, water and the related transportation and other resources at a level that is simply not sustainable. As I say, for me that's by far the most powerful argument. Lemon's further assertion that 'you are not going to change anyones mind on anything by ranting at them' is utterly wrong. All of us got our ideas from others. All of us refine our ideas based on what others have told us. Explaining your point - which is a more accurate term than 'ranting' for Baza's blunt but uninflammatory tone - is *precisely* how you change other people's minds.
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Daminxa 1415 posts |
Sep 26, 2004, 12:02
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I'm only too aware of the impracticality of continuing meat consumption in the western world and I've never been a fan of commercial farming. I'm sure 'compassionate farming' isn't all it's cracked up to be in all cases, but it IS a (albeit small) step in the right direction (and don't, at any cost, get me started on the feckin' RSPCA!!!) I wish, I really do wish, that everyone would stop eating meat, but how do you convince the fuckwits that religiously troop down to McDonalds every weekend and couldn't read the anti-Maccy D leaflets handed out to them? How do you convince the dear old souls like my Mum who simply don't believe that a vegetarian diet provides them with adequate iron and protein? (And don't start - I KNOW it's possible in theory to get your protein from pulses and your iron from leafy green vegetables!) I have the utmost admiration for people who choose to live as vegans, but I stand by what I say about some vegans and veggies being vile to other human beings - that's my own personal experience and no, it doesn't necessarily apply to everyone who has made that life choice. I think what you say about it not having to be an 'all or nothing' thing is extremely salient, though - perhaps in my own small way I am contributing towards a decline in meat production by not eating meat, I just don't really see it like that (much as I'd love to take that credit!) as the reason I don't eat meat isn't entirely due to being against animal suffering, it's first and foremost cos I really don't like the stuff - it's skeevy and clangy and I was unfortunate enough to work in animal welfare for MAFF (an oxymoron, I know) many years ago and believe me, that was enough to put anyone off meat! The fox hunting thing is slightly different, though. I find it particularly disgusting and distasteful because, regardless of the freedom enjoyed by the fox prior to its death it is surely a worse ending to be torn apart by countless dogs than to be beheaded or electrocuted in a slaughter house? I know that's pretty disgusting too but it's GOT to be quicker. It's not just the death of an innocent animal thing with fox hunting, though - it goes beyone the animal cruelty issue and into the arrogance of the over privileged. People involved in fox hunting are, by and large, wealthy and expensively educated at posh public schools. What gets me is that they think it's their God given right to ride wherever they please over other people's land in pursuit of a fox, and how many of the tossers does it take to get rid of one fox, for fux sake?! I've heard, as I'm sure we all have, horror stories about hounds bringing down pet cats in front kids, and all this business of wiping bits of dead fox over first time hunters is fucking barbaric! So what I'm getting round to saying in a rambling and roundabout way is that fox hunting IS different from farming because I guess, it's a class issue. Not everyone that eats meat is an overprivileged tosser but people involved in fox hunting, IMO ARE. Sorry if I'm making sweeping generalisations; I'm just an ignorant comprehensively educated townie with no appreciation of the ways of the country!
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Sep 26, 2004, 13:59
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> > Fox hunting results in a dead fox. > farming livestock results in a meal. > Are you saying that if the hunters pulled the dogs off the fox at the end of the hunt, gathered the remains and had them cooked as part of the post-hunt meal, that you'd find the whole process acceptable?
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Sep 26, 2004, 14:41
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But the one thing about Julian is that he doesn't rant and rave or preach at folks who aren't vegetarian. If you ask him about it he'll have a balanced and informed discussion with you. Julian's vegeness aside, this forum is still the place to talk about this. Animal rights and the elimination of their suffering is a very important issue. I do believe, though, that the secret to the success of this cause does not lie in telling everyone they're bad people if they eat meat. That only pisses people off! You have to start by telling them that they're good people when they eat less meat. Then, as people do so, you can encourage them to eat even less. As people discover that there are good non-meat meals then they are more likely to start eating them more often and the meat consumption will decline as a result, especialy when they realise that they are often cheaper. It's all about education, not conversion to a cause.
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Lawrence 9547 posts |
Sep 26, 2004, 14:47
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I'd like to find out what non-meat meals are good... I mean, I'm as upset about factory-farms as anyone here, but there's not much vegetarian meals that turn me on.
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