|
The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Irish Travellers . |
Log In to post a reply
|
|
|
|
| Topic View: Flat | Threaded | |
tiompan 5758 posts |
Feb 15, 2017, 13:26
|
||
|
tjj wrote: tjj wrote: tiompan wrote: The jargon /tech terminology has an oft heard definition for the results of endogamy . One impact in this case is the prevalence of galactosaemia . What a shame this subject has been hijacked by someone with an axe to grind. My friend from Derry is over at present and visited me this afternoon so I asked her about this. She told me the oral tradition is that in 1603 when James I came to the throne he started to implement the plantations in Ulster. The Irish clans or Gaelic Irish decided to rise up and traveled down to Kinsale to meet the French who were supposed to be helping them (around 1607). The French never arrived due to bad weather and the Gaelic Irish were routed. This resulted in the Flight of the Earls when all the leaders fled to France and Spain. The Gaelic Irish clans were left leaderless so took to the roads and became travellers. I think the paper you posted the link to does make reference to this history and sets out to prove scientifically there is no ancestoral link with the Roma. The conversation with my friend helped to clarify this in lay-person's terms. I know its off topic but am catching up on Irish history, it was never taught at school. Didn't know about the Flight of the Earls until yesterday though there seems to be a crossover with the Gunpowder Plot. A couple of links below for anyone interested. http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/flight-earls http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/history-of-ireland/the-flight-of-the-earls-1/ There is so much , but the 1789 uprising is interesting in it's relation to what was happening in the wider world , very bloody but also funny .French troops landing at Killala in Mayo and being greeted as soldiers of the blessed virgin must have been worthy of Milligan or Na gCopaleen ,once the greetings had been translated .
|
|||
drewbhoy 2557 posts |
Edited Feb 15, 2017, 13:56
Feb 15, 2017, 13:54
|
||
|
tiompan wrote: tjj wrote: tjj wrote: tiompan wrote: The jargon /tech terminology has an oft heard definition for the results of endogamy . One impact in this case is the prevalence of galactosaemia . What a shame this subject has been hijacked by someone with an axe to grind. My friend from Derry is over at present and visited me this afternoon so I asked her about this. She told me the oral tradition is that in 1603 when James I came to the throne he started to implement the plantations in Ulster. The Irish clans or Gaelic Irish decided to rise up and traveled down to Kinsale to meet the French who were supposed to be helping them (around 1607). The French never arrived due to bad weather and the Gaelic Irish were routed. This resulted in the Flight of the Earls when all the leaders fled to France and Spain. The Gaelic Irish clans were left leaderless so took to the roads and became travellers. I think the paper you posted the link to does make reference to this history and sets out to prove scientifically there is no ancestoral link with the Roma. The conversation with my friend helped to clarify this in lay-person's terms. I know its off topic but am catching up on Irish history, it was never taught at school. Didn't know about the Flight of the Earls until yesterday though there seems to be a crossover with the Gunpowder Plot. A couple of links below for anyone interested. http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/flight-earls http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/history-of-ireland/the-flight-of-the-earls-1/ There is so much , but the 1789 uprising is interesting in it's relation to what was happening in the wider world , very bloody but also funny .French troops landing at Killala in Mayo and being greeted as soldiers of the blessed virgin must have been worthy of Milligan or Na gCopaleen ,once the greetings had been translated . It didn't help that Wolfe Tone was captured and that the United Irishmen were not very united at times and rose up as local areas instead of one force.
|
|||
|
tiompan 5758 posts |
Feb 15, 2017, 14:09
|
||
|
drewbhoy wrote: tiompan wrote: tjj wrote: tjj wrote: tiompan wrote: The jargon /tech terminology has an oft heard definition for the results of endogamy . One impact in this case is the prevalence of galactosaemia . What a shame this subject has been hijacked by someone with an axe to grind. My friend from Derry is over at present and visited me this afternoon so I asked her about this. She told me the oral tradition is that in 1603 when James I came to the throne he started to implement the plantations in Ulster. The Irish clans or Gaelic Irish decided to rise up and traveled down to Kinsale to meet the French who were supposed to be helping them (around 1607). The French never arrived due to bad weather and the Gaelic Irish were routed. This resulted in the Flight of the Earls when all the leaders fled to France and Spain. The Gaelic Irish clans were left leaderless so took to the roads and became travellers. I think the paper you posted the link to does make reference to this history and sets out to prove scientifically there is no ancestoral link with the Roma. The conversation with my friend helped to clarify this in lay-person's terms. I know its off topic but am catching up on Irish history, it was never taught at school. Didn't know about the Flight of the Earls until yesterday though there seems to be a crossover with the Gunpowder Plot. A couple of links below for anyone interested. http://www.historytoday.com/richard-cavendish/flight-earls http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/history-of-ireland/the-flight-of-the-earls-1/ There is so much , but the 1789 uprising is interesting in it's relation to what was happening in the wider world , very bloody but also funny .French troops landing at Killala in Mayo and being greeted as soldiers of the blessed virgin must have been worthy of Milligan or Na gCopaleen ,once the greetings had been translated . It didn't help that Wolfe Tone was captured and that the United Irishmen were not very united at times and rose up as local areas instead of one force. So many "old stories" repeated elsewhere , some good ones too .
|
|||
|
tiompan 5758 posts |
Feb 16, 2017, 13:42
|
||
|
On a similar tack to DNA ,Ireland and oral history .This might be of interest . http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13197315.Macneil_clan_shocked_as_DNA_checks_force_rewrite_of_history/ I did mention it a wee while ago but can't find the ref.
|
|||
tjj 3606 posts |
Feb 16, 2017, 14:14
|
||
|
tiompan wrote: On a similar tack to DNA ,Ireland and oral history .This might be of interest . http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13197315.Macneil_clan_shocked_as_DNA_checks_force_rewrite_of_history/ I did mention it a wee while ago but can't find the ref. Ah thanks, an interesting read and a bit more research to do. I do believe now I think about it that the McLeod's are also said to descend from the Vikings. Will do a bit more reading.
|
|||
|
Toni Torino 2299 posts |
Feb 16, 2017, 16:28
|
||
|
tjj wrote: tiompan wrote: The jargon /tech terminology has an oft heard definition for the results of endogamy . One impact in this case is the prevalence of galactosaemia . What a shame this subject has been hijacked by someone with an axe to grind. My friend from Derry is over at present and visited me this afternoon so I asked her about this. She told me the oral tradition is that in 1603 when James I came to the throne he started to implement the plantations in Ulster. The Irish clans or Gaelic Irish decided to rise up and traveled down to Kinsale to meet the French who were supposed to be helping them (around 1607). The French never arrived due to bad weather and the Gaelic Irish were routed. This resulted in the Flight of the Earls when all the leaders fled to France and Spain. The Gaelic Irish clans were left leaderless so took to the roads and became travellers. I think the paper you posted the link to does make reference to this history and sets out to prove scientifically there is no ancestoral link with the Roma. The conversation with my friend helped to clarify this in lay-person's terms. There is a very charming little book of fiction about the Irish Stroytelling tradition: Ireland: A Novel by Frank Delaney "One evening in 1951, an itinerant storyteller arrives unannounced and mysterious at a house in the Irish countryside. By the November fireside he begins to tell the story of this extraordinary land. One of his listeners, a nine-year-old boy, grows so entranced by the storytelling that, when the old man leaves, he devotes his life to finding him again. It is a search that uncovers both passions and mysteries, in his own life as well as the old man's, and their solving becomes the thrilling climax to this tale. But the life of this boy is more than just his story: it is also the telling of a people, the narrative of a nation, the history of Ireland in all its drama, intrigue and heroism. IRELAND travels through the centuries by way of story after story, from the savage grip of the Ice Age to the green and troubled land of tourist brochures and news headlines. Along the way, we meet foolish kings and innocent monks, god-heroes and great works of art, shrewd Norman raiders and envoys from Rome, leaders, poets and lovers. Each illuminates the magic of Ireland, the power of England and the eternal connection to the land." https://www.amazon.co.uk/Ireland-Novel-Frank-Delaney/dp/0751535257/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1487262420&sr=1-1&keywords=ireland+a+novel
|
|||
|
tiompan 5758 posts |
Feb 16, 2017, 17:23
|
||
|
tjj wrote: tiompan wrote: On a similar tack to DNA ,Ireland and oral history .This might be of interest . http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13197315.Macneil_clan_shocked_as_DNA_checks_force_rewrite_of_history/ I did mention it a wee while ago but can't find the ref. Ah thanks, an interesting read and a bit more research to do. I do believe now I think about it that the McLeod's are also said to descend from the Vikings. Will do a bit more reading. Looks like the Isle of Man had a major input . http://www.clanmacleod.org/genealogy/macleod-genealogy-research/the-genetics-of-clan-macleod.html It's a fast changing subject and books are out of date by the time they become available but Jean Manco's http://www.thamesandhudson.com/Blood_of_the_Celts/9780500051832 is worth a read for a much broader perspective than the Scots /Irish etc genetics , and it is still pretty much up to date despite missing out on the important Rathlin Island DNA which only became available 6 months after the first edition .
|
|||
|
tjj 3606 posts |
Edited Mar 06, 2017, 08:51
Mar 06, 2017, 08:39
|
||
|
Some important news - last week Irish travellers were granted indigenous ethnic status in the Irish Republic. http://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2017/03/02/news/irish-travellers-ethnic-status-formally-recognised-948867/ https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0301/856293-travellers-etnic-status/
|
|||
|
tiompan 5758 posts |
Mar 06, 2017, 09:16
|
||
|
Great stuff . They couldn't argue with the science ? The bandits for Eurovision next . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljPFZrRD3J8
|
|||
|
tk421 121 posts |
Mar 16, 2017, 15:52
|
||
|
Never heard this origin myth for Irish travellers before. It's a good story but like most origin myths it's probably not quite right. The Gaelic aristocrats who surrendered to Elizabeth 1 did so after a rebellion, or war, that started in the early/mid-1590s. They lost a battle at Kinsale in 1601 and they surrendered in 1603 on surprisingly good terms. But they surrendered without realising that the Queen was dead: this may explain the good terms that were used to obtain the surrender. Their leader, Hugh O'Neill, is described as having been in a rage after he found out. Prior to their surrender, they seemed to get some level of support in men and munitions through Scotland. They may have thought that they would have got a good deal from James 1, or that they may have been protected by him, when he became king of England. In any event, the suspicion was that they continued to plot with Spain and when matters came to a head they feared arrest and with that the probability of a show trial. They took as much of their families as they could and fled to the continent, seeking the protection of Spain in 1607. They and their families spent the rest of their lives plotting a return to Ireland but this was not achieved until 1641. It's fair to say that when that occurred this was not a happy time in Irish history. In the interim, the plantation of Ulster was initiated following an unsuccessful rebellion by the O'Dohertys after the flight of the earls. The much disputed events of 1641 onwards indicate that despite plantain and private colonisation a large amount of the native population was still in Ulster. While that population may have been displaced to poorer land; it had not at that become a traveller population.
|
| Pages: 5 – [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 ] | Add a reply to this topic |
|
|
|
| The Modern Antiquarian Forum Index | |
