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tjj 3606 posts |
Edited Sep 12, 2014, 20:13
Sep 11, 2014, 22:35
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I've recorded it as missed some of it. I did see the bit about Grimes Graves and was puzzled that Easton Down Flint Mines weren't mentioned (maybe I missed that bit) as just a few miles from where Salisbury now is I would have thought the flint used by the Stonehenge people would have come from there. One of the presenters also implied that adolescents went down the flint pits as a rite of passage. I don't think that would have been the case anymore than it was for young people going down the coal mines in the good old days of more recent times. More likely they were slaves.
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Monganaut 2382 posts |
Sep 12, 2014, 01:36
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Cheers for the link, pity about lack of pics on online version, still, interesting read. "The rituals included exposure of the dead bodies, and defleshing on a large forecourt," said Wolfgang Neuber, at the Ludwig Boltzmann Institute. The house was later covered in chalk and finally became a curious white landmark." When I did an archaeology A level many many moons ago, I seem to recall what later became timber lined long barrows being referred to as Long Mortuary Enclosures. Defleshing and excarnation took place for quite some years before they were sealed up, often being burned to the ground before being covered with earth. Seem to recall it was Fussell's Lodge that was the study subject for that particular practice, but don't quote me on that as I may have miss remembered. I know we studied Fussell's Lodge at some point,that's fer sure! Not sure if the terminology has changed in recent times and Long MOrtuary Enclosures are just referred to as long barrows nowadays? Nice google extract from Tim Darvill's great book, Prehistoric Britain From The Air.... http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ZPC_Bd7reVcC&pg=PA157&lpg=PA157&dq=Fussell%27s+lodge+long+mortuary+enclosure&source=bl&ots=RW973GxwVZ&sig=VH1Me6YoY0gTrxCj7p2-igAJItI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_zoSVPCtHM7waL72gsgD&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Fussell's%20lodge%20long%20mortuary%20enclosure&f=false Old excavation report of Long Mortuary Enclosure in Scotland.... http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archiveDS/archiveDownload?t=arch-352-1/dissemination/pdf/vol_121/121_027_044.pdf As to programme, enjoyed it for what it was, it's only ever gonna be a generalist kinda thang and never goes into the detail I'd like, but hey, at least it's on. Kinda got sick of all the bloody CGI bollox, but I guess that's how they grab the less interested punters attention. I'm with Sactuary on the Grimes Grave bit, doesn't all have to be bloody ritual. Much more inclined to think that with 450 odd shafts there must have been a degree of forced labour and slavery. People don't change that much in 5 thousand odd years, the strong will always dominate the weak when it's for 'financial' gain. Mind you, I suppose you could stretch that point to the Cursus and indeed any of the ancient large scale monument building projects. Looking forward to next week, see what else they dig up (no pun intended :) Still wish they'd excavate a couple more shafts at Grimes Graves, I'm sure they're all similar in some way or other, but I'm sure there would be a few surprises too. Statistically, one shaft isn't necessarily indicative of what you may discover in others. Also, be nice if they could get funding to do something similar around Avebury/ Silbury/ West Kennet region, bet there's loads to discover under the sod there.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Sep 12, 2014, 07:52
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Sanctuary wrote: thesweetcheat wrote: aargh. What was a brilliant opportunity to present some relative new discoveries in a factual way became the usual opinion-as-fact "ceremonial" blah blah blah. Disappointing, despite the excellent landscapes. And too many hairy CGI people. One of whom was Robert Plant. Totally agree Alken. Going to watch it again to see if it's better second time around. BTW, you left out the favoured word...ritual :-) I was also disappointed by the way they portrayed the hunters as near savages. Thought we'd moved on from there.
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Howburn Digger 986 posts |
Sep 12, 2014, 08:05
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Ceremonial. Ritual. Pink Flint. H*rse P*ss. I found some parts of the programme vaguely interesting. For a few minutes the programme seemed to be suggesting that these monumental builders (who were also successful brain surgeons and fairly accurate astronomers) were somehow in awe of bits of pinkish flint. And maybe the whole complex around Stonehenge was there because their ancestors killed a few Aurochs in the vicinity. As Kate Bush would say... Wow! As my pal Euan woulkd say... "Mibbes aye.. mibbes naw."
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Sep 12, 2014, 09:43
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thesweetcheat wrote: aargh. And too many hairy CGI people. One of whom was Robert Plant. Nobodys flint but mine
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moss 2897 posts |
Sep 12, 2014, 10:20
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I must admit I agree with everyone, how to visually make simple important archaeological facts for the obviously idiot audience we are;). As Sanctuary says how do they know they are dirty Mesolithic/Neolithic savages, we are back to Atkinson again with his 'barbarians'. Anyway I fell asleep, the North York moors air helped of course, it is absolutely stunning up here at the moment.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Sep 12, 2014, 10:49
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moss wrote: I must admit I agree with everyone, how to visually make simple important archaeological facts for the obviously idiot audience we are;). As Sanctuary says how do they know they are dirty Mesolithic/Neolithic savages, we are back to Atkinson again with his 'barbarians'. Anyway I fell asleep, the North York moors air helped of course, it is absolutely stunning up here at the moment. This from an archaeo this morning in a private email after I had a whinge and also mentioned the never ending funding... 'I didn’t think it was as bad as all that, though I didn’t particularly like the style – I’m not sure what it was about it, perhaps it seemed a bit too self-important'.
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Edited Sep 12, 2014, 12:18
Sep 12, 2014, 12:05
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No mention of the snails paced procession southwards at noon , maybe next week . Even when leaving aside the error in the western alignment and reasoning for the mid point procession ,what was scary is that nobody ,either prog production or worse any of the huge numbers involved seems to have picked up on the obvious circular reasoning in the explanation for the “intersection “ . The script : “When the position of the pits were computer modelled against movements of the sun “ (note , no mention of the site the movements were being modelled from .) “ Their true importance became clear , the calculation “(note there is no calculation merely a recording of the solstice rise and set from one point ) “showed that on midsummers day the eastern pits alignment with the sun set and western pits alignment with sun set “(note , the fact that it is unsighted from the monument and is not on the line of the alignment is less important in relation to the logical error , for the moment ) “ intersect” (note, the crux of the tautology , of course they would intersect there if that is where you are recording the phenomena from in the first instance ) at the location of where Stonehenge would be built some 400 years later .” A less important potential problem is the date of the pits ,they are undated , they could post date the construction of monument .
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Sep 12, 2014, 14:13
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tiompan wrote: No mention of the snails paced procession southwards at noon , maybe next week . Even when leaving aside the error in the western alignment and reasoning for the mid point procession ,what was scary is that nobody ,either prog production or worse any of the huge numbers involved seems to have picked up on the obvious circular reasoning in the explanation for the “intersection “ . The script : “When the position of the pits were computer modelled against movements of the sun “ (note , no mention of the site the movements were being modelled from .) “ Their true importance became clear , the calculation “(note there is no calculation merely a recording of the solstice rise and set from one point ) “showed that on midsummers day the eastern pits alignment with the sun set and western pits alignment with sun set “(note , the fact that it is unsighted from the monument and is not on the line of the alignment is less important in relation to the logical error , for the moment ) “ intersect” (note, the crux of the tautology , of course they would intersect there if that is where you are recording the phenomena from in the first instance ) at the location of where Stonehenge would be built some 400 years later .” A less important potential problem is the date of the pits ,they are undated , they could post date the construction of monument . Interestingly, during a recent trip to the area I stood a wooden post in the middle of the site of the recently discovered 'bluestonehenge' and found that a direct line from the midsummer sunrise to the post intersected exactly with a direct line from the midsummer sunset to the post.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Sep 12, 2014, 14:22
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tiompan wrote: No mention of the snails paced procession southwards at noon , maybe next week . Even when leaving aside the error in the western alignment and reasoning for the mid point procession ,what was scary is that nobody ,either prog production or worse any of the huge numbers involved seems to have picked up on the obvious circular reasoning in the explanation for the “intersection “ . The script : “When the position of the pits were computer modelled against movements of the sun “ (note , no mention of the site the movements were being modelled from .) “ Their true importance became clear , the calculation “(note there is no calculation merely a recording of the solstice rise and set from one point ) “showed that on midsummers day the eastern pits alignment with the sun set and western pits alignment with sun set “(note , the fact that it is unsighted from the monument and is not on the line of the alignment is less important in relation to the logical error , for the moment ) “ intersect” (note, the crux of the tautology , of course they would intersect there if that is where you are recording the phenomena from in the first instance ) at the location of where Stonehenge would be built some 400 years later .” A less important potential problem is the date of the pits ,they are undated , they could post date the construction of monument . Presumably these latest revelations will be manna from heaven for EH and the Visitor Centre, but does anybody check out the alignment claims to see if they are correct, or just take it for granted that they know what they are talking about? Just asking.
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