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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Edited Apr 08, 2009, 22:11
Apr 08, 2009, 22:09
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IanB wrote: In terms of creating a fairer society I think of the UK as no more and no less than a swing-state and it is the sum of individual daily actions that will determine the outcome. Protesting someone else's failures is not "doing" any more than you can win an argument with a baton. Real change comes with concerted individual localised daily effort not forming up in massed ranks behind a flag or a marching band and then going home again to await the next clarion call while the outcome is being determined elsewhere. While there are many serious and committed people involved there are also people who seem to view the whole enterprise of protest either as an ad hoc version of Glasto with the addition of an Urban Warfare Tent or, some kind of hyper adrenilized, state-sponsored spectator sport. Which in some ways is exactly what it is. Just noticed your post here Ian, you rarely pipe up here but when you do you often make the most consise sense out of any of us! I'm of the belief that if you take care of your own little world and that which surrounds you then there will be knock on effect of sorts. I'm involved in lots of things to do with the school and certain community groups and it's not as newsworthy as throwing goo at politicians but to those involved (and me) it means everything and actually achieves more. I have always sensed a misanthropic streak here at times, now I sort of understand why that is. The Glasto comparison too is priceless, and I get ye 100% Cheers, a chink of light at last. x
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laresident 861 posts |
Apr 09, 2009, 04:27
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We will not have wrong opinions expressed on this forum. All those wishing to express wrong opinions, will be sent to other forums.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Apr 09, 2009, 17:51
Apr 09, 2009, 10:10
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shanshee_allures wrote: IanB wrote: In terms of creating a fairer society I think of the UK as no more and no less than a swing-state and it is the sum of individual daily actions that will determine the outcome. Protesting someone else's failures is not "doing" any more than you can win an argument with a baton. Real change comes with concerted individual localised daily effort not forming up in massed ranks behind a flag or a marching band and then going home again to await the next clarion call while the outcome is being determined elsewhere. While there are many serious and committed people involved there are also people who seem to view the whole enterprise of protest either as an ad hoc version of Glasto with the addition of an Urban Warfare Tent or, some kind of hyper adrenilized, state-sponsored spectator sport. Which in some ways is exactly what it is. Just noticed your post here Ian, you rarely pipe up here but when you do you often make the most consise sense out of any of us! I'm of the belief that if you take care of your own little world and that which surrounds you then there will be knock on effect of sorts. I'm involved in lots of things to do with the school and certain community groups and it's not as newsworthy as throwing goo at politicians but to those involved (and me) it means everything and actually achieves more. I have always sensed a misanthropic streak here at times, now I sort of understand why that is. The Glasto comparison too is priceless, and I get ye 100% Cheers, a chink of light at last. x Cheers. I rarely pipe up here as I know there is a 50/50 chance that I'll disagree with most of what I write the next time I read it!. With Kiss or Van Halen I am on much firmer ground. If I had to leave my kids with just one idea it would be to urge them to resist those who want to be in gangs and to follow flags, drums and marching bands. I don't care whose side theiy claim to be on. It's all so much hate. Participating on those terms merely feeds the beast. 240 years or so of political history since the Paris Commune teaches us that much. 240 years of the working men and women being on the losing side regardless as to which side was the military victor. Reading your posts we are more or less of a similar mind. Individual effort expended in a way that has a noticable effect is a powerful (the most powerful) thing - both for the person making it and for their community. They don't call it exercising political will for nothing. It requires individual effort and work. And there is no virtual equivalent. No political version of Guitar Hero to give one the illusion of having kicked out the jams. How unfashionable is that!
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Apr 09, 2009, 10:15
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dave clarkson wrote: ...can't comment on that one J - haven't enough info. Yet you feel qualified to comment on every public order police operation ever in saying that they don't baton peaceful people.
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Apr 09, 2009, 10:29
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dave clarkson wrote: I believe that the police shown should be accountable and dealt with appropriately. This is very sad and they should be ashamed of themselves. This implies that it's just the occasional bad officer. Look again at the video of Ian Tomlinson. Look at the casualness of the officer who attacks him. Look how the colleagues are completely unsurprised. do you think this is the only time that officer behaved like that? Do you think the colleagues didn't do the same thing? When these officers reached the crowd, what do you think they did? Then look at the climate camp film. Every single officer is behaving like that. It is not them acting on 'private motivations', they have clearly had orders to do that. What sort of thing do you think is being said to the group of officers being briefed at the start of the film? dave clarkson wrote: I've never 'asserted' this sort of thing doesn't happen. Yes you have. Twice in this thread. dave clarkson wrote: I don't believe, as you appear to suggest, that they purposefully go out of their way to knock people around. dave clarkson wrote: Batons are always a last resort so I believe That's unambiguous to me. dave clarkson wrote: The clip has no barring on my continual view that the 'collective' force, I believe, don't, on the whole, purposefully go out to knock people around. In day to day policing? No, I completely agree, that clearly doesn't happen. Of course, because everyone can see their weaponry and know they can arrest you under the I Don't Like your Face Act, they rarely need to use violence. But what I'm getting at here - and please engage with this if nothing else, Dave - is that on certain protests it is clearly the strategy to use unprovoked violence. dave clarkson wrote: I've been on plenty of marches and demos and not seen police brutality. Me too! so the question is, what's different about the other ones? At the ones that turn nasty that I've been on, without exception, there's been the deployment of riot officers into peaceful protest and an attack on the protesters. Usually, some of the protesters have responded by chucking stuff. But then, if the cops did that anywhere with a large group of people- railway station, shopping centre, you name it - they'd get the same response. It is a strategy used on certain protests, ones that have been deemed politically unacceptable.
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Apr 09, 2009, 10:44
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pooley wrote: Merrick wrote: if that was 'one bad officer', why did none of his colleagues pull him back, or indeed respond in any way? Do you really think that was the only incidence of it that day and it just happened to be caught on video? Or does the casual manner in a calm environment imply it is common practice? And, if it's one bad officer, they must be cloning themselves to do this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlJRi7YR1bU This, I point out to you for the third time in the hope you'll actually watch it and consider what it shows (the clue is in the chant of 'this is not a riot') before asserting that this stuff doesn't happen. All of those coppers are equally as guilty. I am a supporter of the police, and will defend them as much as humanly possible (sorry). But, these actions are an utter fucking disgrace. But ask yourself, does it look like one or two officers being bastards on their own motivation, or does it look like it was universal practice and - and bear in mind the climate camp footage before ansswering - the premeditated tactic given as an order? pooley wrote: these bastards need to be found and charged. which ones? The entire deployment at climate camp? how about the others that day? I saw dozens and dozens of people there treated like Ian Tomlinson (and I was at the markedly more peaceful climate camp protest and left before they kettled it in the evening and cleared it with dogs and batons) The definition of 'these bastards' would include the overwhelming majority of officers there on the day, and every officer in charge. We can expect them, if past performance is anything to go by, to collude on statements and lie outright to cover themselves. If anyone needs to take a fall - and the number of blatantly illegal assaults the police have been seen to do that resulted in no disciplinary charges (let alone criminal convictions) is legion - then they'll make sure it was the poor grunts on the ground who did the batoning, who were being good officers by doing what they were told. It's what power does to defend itself. Pretend the methods weren't policy but were a rogue few (Abu Ghraib and My Lai, anyone?) pooley wrote: Drives me mad, I always talk about how good the police are Ask yourself - how many officers refused to follow these illegal orders to assault people? how many have turned themselves in or reported their senior officers? It's not just the odd officer, it's how they work, it's institutional.
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Squid Tempest 8761 posts |
Apr 09, 2009, 10:45
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Merrick wrote: In day to day policing? No, I completely agree, that clearly doesn't happen. Of course, because everyone can see their weaponry and know they can arrest you under the I Don't Like your Face Act, they rarely need to use violence. Hah! Yeah, they've used that act on me in the past. Mind you, they followed it up with some gratuitous violence just for fun, then stood me on a table with my trousers round my ankles while they interrogated me for an hour or two. They let me go eventually. I guess they were satisfied that I knew by that time that, indeed, they didn't like my face.
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Merrick 2148 posts |
Apr 09, 2009, 10:53
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Firstly, everyone who posts on a political forum likes to puff up their chest and pontificate. Secondly, everyone is labouring under misapprehensions due to bias and wrong or absent information. We should seek to find out what ours are and shed them, and seek to find them in others and point them out, so that we all may move forward in a better informed and better thought-through way.
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Rolling Ronnie 1468 posts |
Apr 09, 2009, 10:58
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Possibly the first truly sensible post in the entire thread?
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PMM 3155 posts |
Apr 09, 2009, 13:49
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from july 5 2005 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4646491.stm "At 1245 BST, the main body of protesters was hemmed in at Canning Street in the west of Edinburgh, with no access into side streets." Peaceful demo turned into a conflict...
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