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tjj
tjj
3313 posts

Re: Ireland threatening to block Brexit deal ....
Jun 27, 2017, 23:20
Sanctuary wrote:

Well said Dhajjie...


Sigh! Of course you would say that. Can you not at least admit Theresa May and her government are making one almighty fuck up of just about everything. I'm not saying Jeremy Corbyn is the 'second coming' and yes he probably is a Marxist, as is John McDonnell. What exactly is wrong with that? Could you spell it out for me.
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2463 posts

Edited Jun 28, 2017, 09:47
Re: Ireland threatening to block Brexit deal ....
Jun 28, 2017, 09:47
tjj wrote:
https://skwawkbox.org/2017/06/22/breaking-ireland-will-block-brexit-deal-if-maydup-deal-goes-ahead/

No disrespect to N.I. but this 1.5 billion bribe to the DUP is beyond the pale. Why don't they just Go Now before the revolution begins.


Good, meanwhile up North the Independence movement,SNP and SGP are unified preparing to throw out the Tory/Labour/Liberal alliance.
grufty jim
grufty jim
1940 posts

Re: Ireland threatening to block Brexit deal ....
Jun 28, 2017, 10:31
drewbhoy wrote:
Good, meanwhile up North the Independence movement,SNP and SGP are unified preparing to throw out the Tory/Labour/Liberal alliance.


I don't know. I think the Scottish independence movement made a tactical error (and I say that as someone who thinks independence would be a good thing for Scotland).

Brexit has polarised the UK and it's brought a lot of uncertainty. Scotland voted against it, but is being dragged along anyway. My own view, as someone who studies group psychology, is that the SNP and Scottish independence movement should have put talk of a second referendum on hold (just for a few years) and painted themselves instead as the real "strong and stable" force in Scottish politics.

The people of Scotland (if we assume the referendum numbers to be meaningful) have had an unwanted change (brexit) foisted upon them by referendum. It should be obvious that an election campaign promising yet another referendum with unknown and potentially massive consequences risked alienating damn near every floating voter.

Being part of the brexit car-crash is going to hurt Scotland. But there was never any chance of getting out before it happened; even if a 2nd referendum was held tomorrow. I don't know how the hell you're going to deal with a customs-border between England and Scotland, if and when you vote for independence and join the EU.

But apparently the brexiteers didn't think it was going to be that big a deal in Ireland; so I'm sure they have an easy solution for Scotland too.

Straight after the Brexit vote, people started talking about a "border poll" in Northern Ireland... a vote for reunification with the Republic. It was even mentioned by our -- at the time -- ultra-establishment, conservative Taoiseach (PM).

Tellingly, Gerry Adams of Sinn Féin only mentioned it once. He suggested now was not the right time; that perhaps we could look at the idea "in four or five years". He understood that the people of Northern Ireland didn't want any more uncertainty right now. And he understood that even if Brexit doesn't turn out to be a long-term disaster, it's almost certainly going to look that way for the first few years after it happens.

And I have to agree with Adams on that. Whatever side you stand, that is clearly the tactically astute time to discuss a border poll. I think the same might be true of Scottish independence.
nigelswift
7400 posts

Re: Ireland threatening to block Brexit deal ....
Jun 28, 2017, 11:28
grufty jim wrote:

Being part of the brexit car-crash is going to hurt Scotland ..... But apparently the brexiteers didn't think it was going to be that big a deal in Ireland; so I'm sure they have an easy solution for Scotland too."


Isn't that the big reality? The true technical difficulties are becoming clear one by one and what people thought they were voting for is nothing like what they're going to get. There might not be a revolution but there's going to be a lot of dynamic political happenings and civil unrest.
Howburn Digger
Howburn Digger
749 posts

Edited Jun 28, 2017, 12:39
Ireland... Tories threaten Good Friday Agreement to be tossed out on Blue Bin day.
Jun 28, 2017, 12:35
Brexit-Shmexit...
The DUP are the least of our worries. Theresa May is (politically) a dead woman walking. The concern is the schism it re-creates, in a "province" which has its roots in the 17th Century European and Political mire. A mire which had so many about-faces and contradictory agendas that even in the early 20th Century, a barbaric industrial WW1 and an Irish Revolutionary War couldn't resolve the glaringly bleeding obvious. The fudge was made, hands were wrung, justifications were made for past evils and ill-treatment, lines were drawn, the old-boys sat down with cigars and whiskey and signed some papers.

The North lay preserved under a weird 1930-50's blanket up until the 1990's. The South lay entombed in a weird "povertwilight" until the late 70-80's when the EEC money started trickling in. The EEC money did a lot for Oirish rural development and farming. The non-carry-on at the Border meant endless journeys for some livestock as they travelled South, then North, then South, boomeranging around to create new tarrif repayments, VAT scams and general administrative idiocy which only the EEC and HM Customs could facilitate and only the Oirish could have dreamed up and then knitted to suit the situation and maximise the best from a shabby situation.

I lived, worked and studied in Northern Ireland back in the funky 1980's when it was (... ahem...) a fairly lively place both politically and militarily. The politics of it by then had dwindled to fatal hunger-strikes over prison garb, Sunday opening for pubs, installing women's toilets in pubs and the ill-fated "Save Ulster From Sodomy" campaign. The paramiltary situation had dwindled into a weird chessgame of placemen working for various MI factions setting up bombings, shootings, proxy assassinations and general mayhem.

I pointed out quite some time ago on here that a hung Parliament with the Tories attempting ANY deal with the DUP would break the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. Everyone in Ireland knew this. Mentioning it in mainland Britain was equivalent to talking in Klingon about Balamory burning down. No-one could comprehend it, was interested or could see any relevance to Britain's Got Talent. Recently UK news covered this trivial, minor DUP issue as if a deal with the DUP was simply nothing. No BBC or major TV or UK newspaper seemed interested in pointing out this MASSSIVE scab which was being picked off in one scoop by Theresa May. She either has NO idea what she is doing or she is a psychopath posing in a Middle England Vicar's Daughter's clothing. I do NOT believe she has not been briefed or given the correct information. This is a massive brick getting knowingly thrown into what has been a fairly calm pond recently.

In many ways Theresa May is as irrelevant as the DUP is. Theresa will be gone sooner rather than later. The DUP will remain with their seats at Stormont and at Westminster, a strange anomaly which few people outside the six counties can countenance let alone attempt to understand. Perhaps the schism this ToryDUP is set to rip across NI is a deliberate attempt by Westminster to force the issue and finally cut mother's apron strings, perhaps it is a deliberate distraction from Mainland UK issues, perhaps it is the talentless May's crappiest last throw of the dice ever, perhaps it is a return to the strange manipulations which were borne out in the 1980's when I lived over there. Whatever it is, it will be felt strongest over in those six counties even if they get high-speed broadband and a few roads re-surfaced.

The only film I ever felt came close to touching on what was going on over there in the 80's was difficult movie called "Angel" which was directed by Noel Jordan and starred a young Stephen Rea. You wont feel any better by the end of it but some of the confusion might clear a little.

https://youtu.be/Z0RSD0mWIVI
drewbhoy
drewbhoy
2463 posts

Re: Ireland threatening to block Brexit deal ....
Jun 28, 2017, 12:57
grufty jim wrote:
drewbhoy wrote:
Good, meanwhile up North the Independence movement,SNP and SGP are unified preparing to throw out the Tory/Labour/Liberal alliance.


I don't know. I think the Scottish independence movement made a tactical error (and I say that as someone who thinks independence would be a good thing for Scotland).

Brexit has polarised the UK and it's brought a lot of uncertainty. Scotland voted against it, but is being dragged along anyway. My own view, as someone who studies group psychology, is that the SNP and Scottish independence movement should have put talk of a second referendum on hold (just for a few years) and painted themselves instead as the real "strong and stable" force in Scottish politics.

The people of Scotland (if we assume the referendum numbers to be meaningful) have had an unwanted change (brexit) foisted upon them by referendum. It should be obvious that an election campaign promising yet another referendum with unknown and potentially massive consequences risked alienating damn near every floating voter.

Being part of the brexit car-crash is going to hurt Scotland. But there was never any chance of getting out before it happened; even if a 2nd referendum was held tomorrow. I don't know how the hell you're going to deal with a customs-border between England and Scotland, if and when you vote for independence and join the EU.

But apparently the brexiteers didn't think it was going to be that big a deal in Ireland; so I'm sure they have an easy solution for Scotland too.

Straight after the Brexit vote, people started talking about a "border poll" in Northern Ireland... a vote for reunification with the Republic. It was even mentioned by our -- at the time -- ultra-establishment, conservative Taoiseach (PM).

Tellingly, Gerry Adams of Sinn Féin only mentioned it once. He suggested now was not the right time; that perhaps we could look at the idea "in four or five years". He understood that the people of Northern Ireland didn't want any more uncertainty right now. And he understood that even if Brexit doesn't turn out to be a long-term disaster, it's almost certainly going to look that way for the first few years after it happens.

And I have to agree with Adams on that. Whatever side you stand, that is clearly the tactically astute time to discuss a border poll. I think the same might be true of Scottish independence.


Totally agree, it is a waiting game as Westminster will fall flat on its face and the people who voted for Brexit wherever they live will realise they walked up a garden path. Meanwhile people down south should know that Scotland was lied to during Indy1. We were promised that we would remain in the EU if the people in Scotland voted No. Seems that promise was easy to break.
tjj
tjj
3313 posts

Edited Jun 28, 2017, 15:02
Re: Ireland... Tories threaten Good Friday Agreement to be tossed out on Blue Bin day.
Jun 28, 2017, 14:35
Howburn Digger wrote:

........
I pointed out quite some time ago on here that a hung Parliament with the Tories attempting ANY deal with the DUP would break the terms of the Good Friday Agreement. Everyone in Ireland knew this. Mentioning it in mainland Britain was equivalent to talking in Klingon about Balamory burning down. No-one could comprehend it, was interested or could see any relevance to Britain's Got Talent. Recently UK news covered this trivial, minor DUP issue as if a deal with the DUP was simply nothing. No BBC or major TV or UK newspaper seemed interested in pointing out this MASSSIVE scab which was being picked off in one scoop by Theresa May. She either has NO idea what she is doing or she is a psychopath posing in a Middle England Vicar's Daughter's clothing. I do NOT believe she has not been briefed or given the correct information. This is a massive brick getting knowingly thrown into what has been a fairly calm pond recently.
..........

The only film I ever felt came close to touching on what was going on over there in the 80's was difficult movie called "Angel" which was directed by Noel Jordan and starred a young Stephen Rea. You wont feel any better by the end of it but some of the confusion might clear a little.

https://youtu.be/Z0RSD0mWIVI


Thank you for your insightful analysis, and Jim's too (have copied just two paragraph's into my reply). Agree completely May and her desperate inner circle don't seem to have a clue about the ramifications of their actions where NI is concerned. Chris Patten was talking on morning tv earlier, referred to the £1.5 billion as a 'bung' which they didn't need to do. The DUP would never have voted against the Tories anyway as they wouldn't want Jeremy Corbyn in control. He also said his involvement in the Good Friday Agreement was probably the most difficult job he's ever had.

I think I've seen 'Angel' as really like Neil Jordan (haven't seen anything from him in while). Will watch it again later tonight.
Locodogz
Locodogz
232 posts

Re: Ireland... Tories threaten Good Friday Agreement to be tossed out on Blue Bin day.
Jun 28, 2017, 15:04
I'm genuinely curious - having read your interesting post three times over!

You start by stating that "The DUP are the least of our worries" and then go to paint a scenario under which the Tory/DUP deal fatally undermines the GFA? I spent a deal of time in Belfast in the (late) 80's and - whilst I'd completely agree with your description of a "fairly lively place both politically and militarily" - its not a place I'd wish it's current occupants back to any time soon?

I really hope this Tory shambles is over before its had the chance to undermine one of the greatest peace-making achievements of our era.

FWIW I'm fascinated as to how this blatant (and not even attempted to conceal) 'bung' will play out in the Tory heartlands of England? A rampant Corbyn in the North coupled with 'up in arms' littleEnglanders in the South could make for an interesting few months.

But in all seriously the one thing I'd most hate to see as 'collateral damage' from any fall out would be the GFA. So I'd view the DUP as a major worry at this time?
Howburn Digger
Howburn Digger
749 posts

Re: Ireland... Tories threaten Good Friday Agreement to be tossed out on Blue Bin day.
Jun 29, 2017, 18:32
Locodogz wrote:
I'm genuinely curious - having read your interesting post three times over!

You start by stating that "The DUP are the least of our worries" and then go to paint a scenario under which the Tory/DUP deal fatally undermines the GFA?

Yes. It is the undermining of the GFA which is the problem. The DUP will always be with us. They are the least of our problems.

Locodogz wrote:
I spent a deal of time in Belfast in the (late) 80's and - whilst I'd completely agree with your description of a "fairly lively place both politically and militarily" - its not a place I'd wish it's current occupants back to any time soon?

I hope your time in Norn Irn was as enjoyable and memorable as mine was. I loved the place. I left on a midnight boat after some nasty stuff in North Belfast. That was nearly thirty years ago. I would wish no return to those days for anyone. I made many friends. I sometimes dream of the North Antrim Coast and often look over from Arran each Summer.

Locodogz wrote:
I really hope this Tory shambles is over before its had the chance to undermine one of the greatest peace-making achievements of our era... in all seriously the one thing I'd most hate to see as 'collateral damage' from any fall out would be the GFA. So I'd view the DUP as a major worry at this time?


I agree with everything you say except the last line. I am NOT worried about the DUP, they have been around for ever and shall remain around forever (insert Ian Paisley voice there...). It is the deliberate undermining of GFA by Westminster for political expediency to prop up a failed Tory government which is the worry for me. It means that they are viewing any fallout on the People of Norn Irn as "collateral damage" already. And that they are okay with that. That is my problem with this.
Howburn Digger
Howburn Digger
749 posts

Edited Jun 29, 2017, 21:17
Re: Ireland... Tories threaten Good Friday Agreement to be tossed out on Blue Bin day.
Jun 29, 2017, 21:17
tjj wrote:
I think I've seen 'Angel' as really like Neil Jordan (haven't seen anything from him in while). Will watch it again later tonight.


I haven't seen it in years - just ordered a copy on DVD. It was a challenging film in that the spiralling out of the violence didn't really have the script to merit it in some ways. But it still holds a very strange and compelling grip from the start and the film does shine a light on the place-men and stooges which were such a massive part of the low-intensity-operation/ manipulation tit-for-tat assassination game and bandit-turf-war which Northern Ireland became.

I first saw "Angel" at a special screening at a film society at The New University of Ulster around 1984. Much of the manipulation of Rea's actions went right past me at the time (I was too young and inexperienced to understand what was actually happening in Ulster at the time, I was trapped in the "two sides" nonsense). It really took until the Gibraltor Killings and watching the Spiralling Multi-Funerals Assassination Aftermath Principle playing out to be able to start understand something of what was going on. Maybe those two armed troopers who were sent into that funeral were told they were gonna be rescued... but hey they were just collateral damage...

The idea of "alliances", "pacts","croney-ism", "bungs", "influence" and "special treatment" for one side in the GFA (and not the other) can only be a prelude to a return to the "influence" which was at the heart of nearly thirty years of Murder and Mayhem.

Remember Hillsborough. Remember Bloody Sunday. Remember how long it took to get to the truth and the massive damage done. That was croney-ism, pacts, mutual back-coverage and pervasive Police, Army and Government influence. It is that... not the DUP (bless their cotton Non-Evolution-Believing socks) or Sinn Fein we have to fear.
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