|
U-Know! Forum » rightwing Dutch politician assassinated |
Log In to post a reply
|
|
|
|
| Topic View: Flat | Threaded | |
Merrick 2148 posts |
May 07, 2002, 16:15
|
||
|
Pim Fortuyn did *not* jump an anti-Islamic bandwagon - although trumpeted as 'anti-Islam', every time I actually saw him quoted as opposed to merely reported in a sensationalist way, he was very clear about this. He was clear that he was not against Islam per se, but he was against certain aspects of Islamic culture, specifically the sexism and homophobia. [slight paraphrase from interview on Channel 4 news]: 'To muslims I, as a gay man, am less than a pig. Women are less than men. If I had these views you would say I was backward. If Dutch society had these views you would say it was not progressive. Islamic culture has these views, and so I say this about it. Do you not agree?' [The interviewer didn't answer the question.] Also, Mr B, Fortuyn was not a Nazi. Xenophobic, even racist? arguably yes. A national socialist? no way. People really have to distinguish between racism, fascism and Nazism. The three get used interchangably, particularly by such eye-off-the-ball people like the Anti Nazi League. It is easy to show that Pim Fortuyn was not a Nazi, and if his supporters do so then they have discredited his accusers, who probably had valid points to make. But anyway, if we really like the idea of murdering people because they are racist, then let's start with people who are actually responsible for racist killings. Who's committed more racist murders, the BNP or the police? Let's shoot Michael Howard and Jack Straw for their racist immigration and asylum laws that see thousands of people returned to their home countries to be tortured and killed. Let's add all the civil servants who implement our immigration system. Let's kill all the MPs who approved such laws. Anyone who approves of Pim Fortuyn's murder should be trying to kill their local MP, or else they're all mouth and no trousers. And Mr B, 'He took the risk by promoting his repellent views' is frankly nonsense. That's like saying the asylum seeker murdered in Glasgow knew there was racism in Britain, they took the risk when they came here. Or does the right to life only apply to people you like? As Noam Chomsky said, 'Goebbels would let you say what you want, so long as he agreed with it. It is a poor service to the memory of the victims of the Holocaust to adopt one of the central tenets of their murderers'.
|
|||
cancer boy 977 posts |
May 07, 2002, 16:19
|
||
|
As the interview quotes that follow illustrate, the guy certainly wasn't a "nazi" by any stretch of th e imagination. I don't endorse his views at all but I don't think they're deserving of a bullet in the head either. Shooting anyone whose views I didn't like would make me a fascist (although naturally I'd be one of the "good" fascists who was allowed to kill "bad" fascists). (Source - Daily Telegraph 04/05/2002) "I'm not anti-Muslim, I'm not anti-immigration; I'm saying we've got big problems in our cities. It's not very smart to make the problem bigger by letting in millions more immigrants from rural Muslim cultures that don't assimilate." He is speaking close to the Turkish consulate, in a run-down quarter of Rotterdam's port where the beat is Afro-Caribbean, teenage girls wear the veil, and the streets are desolate after dark. "In any case, this country is already bursting. I think 16 million are quite enough." Dressed in his trademark checked shirt and matching silk handkerchief, the television wit and professional provocateur relished the chance to take a swipe at Tony Blair, telling The Telegraph that his moralistic foreign policy was a "danger to world peace". Snorting with delight, he said the British would not care for it if an Arab leader ordered them to change their ways under threat of aerial bombing. The epitome of the new politics, neither Left nor Right, Mr Fortuyn sweeps from one television studio to another in his chauffeur-driven Daimler, cradling his lap-dogs, and reduces his tired-looking rivals to open-mouthed silence by sheer cheek. Laxer rules on euthanasia, legalised marketing of soft drugs, the use of the private sector to cut waiting lists in hospitals, abolition of capital gains tax: he comes at them from every side, usually skating over his loose arithmetic. One would hardly know that he was once a Marxist professor of sociology. But the core of the Fortuyn message is laid out in his book Against the Islamicisation of our Culture. It is selling like hot cakes, with the warning that radical Islam, creating fortresses in Rotterdam, Amsterdam and other Dutch cities, is a mortal threat to Holland's easy-going way of life, its feminist emancipation, and tolerance of gay people. Contemptuously waving aside suggestions that he is Holland's answer to Jean-Marie Le Pen, or Austria's Jorg Haider, or Filip Dewinter of the Belgian Vlaams Blok, Mr Fortuyn said it was sloppy thinking to lump all of Europe's anti-establishment movements together as some sort of meaningful far Right. "Right-wing in Holland is to the Left of the Tories in England," he said. "If I were living in France I'd vote for Jacques Chirac, despite the fact that he can't seem to keep his hands out of the cash till," he added. "I am appalled by Le Pen's anti-Semitic past and feelings. A man who says the Holocaust is no more than a footnote in history is beyond my comprehension." Unlike the French National Front, Mr Fortuyn has drawn a line in the sand over deportation - the issue that really sorts the sheep from the goats on Europe's political Right. "If you allow immigrants into your country then you're responsible for them. "That means they have the same rights and you can't just throw them out of the country. If Turkish or Moroccan boys misbehave here, it's up to us to re-educate them, and when necessary to punish them," he said. Those who are in, stay in. For the rest, the portcullis comes down.
|
|||
|
mushroom si 43 posts |
May 07, 2002, 16:20
|
||
Violence tends to breed violence. . Education and tolerance is the key to beating racism i feel, i used to know a british movement guy who later married a afro-carrabian girl. So strange things do happen.
|
|||
Lord Lucan 2702 posts |
May 07, 2002, 16:21
|
||
|
Avocating the assassination of people like this makes me deeply uneasy. Whilst I can see the motive for this type of action against Nazi scum, I can't help thinking that there is deep hypocrisy in sanctioning this type of assassination whilst finding the murder of people like JFK or Martin Luther King immoral. I like spirit's reasoning on this one. I disagree wholeheartedly with the method, but can't help smirking anyway.
|
|||
|
mushroom si 43 posts |
May 07, 2002, 16:23
|
||
Very well said, mate.
|
|||
necropolist 1689 posts |
May 07, 2002, 16:53
|
||
|
>He was clear that he was not against Islam per se, but he was against certain aspects of Islamic culture sorry, but that is overwhelmingly what racists & nazi's DO say today - "yes its all very well in there own country, but not in mine" The press are using the fact that the guy was gay to make it sound surprising that he was a racist! What’s being gay got to do with anything? One of the most right wing and hate filled groups in the old South Africa was the Organisation of Lesbian & Gay Awareness. Sadly, suffering from one form of bigotry doesn’t necessarily make anyone more sympathetic to someone who is faced with another. The man was a right-wing populist, fanatically anti-immigration and immigrants, against most state spending, anti-union, all for a mythical vision of what Holland used to be, perhaps more of an extreme right-winger like Berlusconi, than he is like Le Pen, but extremely nasty never the less, and not very far from almost definitive fascism. And as such he is as most probable bed-fellow for the real Nazi’s, as no other fucker would deal with him! (Tho of course they might well not have done so, due to his sexuality). I don’t understand how you can say he definitely WASN’T a nazi – that there is insufficient evidence, fair enough. But definitely not?? I don’t see how you can say that at all. Have the police and the tories really killed more people than the Nazi’s? Of course they have. But is that violence there MAIN orgainising tool? No, it lies behinds everything they do, but it is not the MAIN weapon, and that is what makes fighting fascism different from fighting ‘ordinary’ politics. I must say I’m not entirely sure that such tactics really apply to a borderline fascist like Fortuyn, tho I have a damned sight more sympathy with his killer than I would do for him or any of his friends and associates. Also, you are of course right that we shouldn’t mix up the terms, but I think the ANL are actually very clear in not just calling any racist a fascist/nazi (I see no meaningful difference between those two terms). They clearly DON’T include even the most right-wing tory scumbags in such a class, nor did they include most of the old South American military dictatorships that a hell of a lot of people called fascist. And finally, actually I would agree with Mr B, he did know what he was doing, and what he was risking. In the same way that I do when I go on anti-nazi demo’s/actions. Doing that makes you a target in a way that simply trying to live your life does not. Of course an attack by a BNP member on an ANL/AFA member is wrong, but I think its very different to such an attack on a black/gay guy who is attacked for simply being what they are. Oh l,ordy this could go on forever!!
|
|||
|
Mr B 53 posts |
May 07, 2002, 17:04
|
||
I stand by the statement that we are better off as members of the human race that this hypocrite is dead. Sorry if any sensibilities are offended there as regards free speech etc. Free speech is fine up to a point. But evil should have no platform. As soon as one person begins to espouse views against minority groups attempting to live in peace in another country then he or she risks this sort of treatment. That goes for right wingers (seems the concept of a nazi has become a bit blurred in this thread. Are we only allowed to say nazi if they despise Jews?). Mullahs, whoever. Extremists put us in peril. I personally would rather have a guy like this denied his platform than large scale race wars across Europe
|
|||
|
Mr B 53 posts |
May 07, 2002, 17:07
|
||
|
your absolutely right Necropolis. (But of course this one splits the HH camp in two methinks)
|
|||
|
necropolist 1689 posts |
May 07, 2002, 17:19
|
||
|
Not seen his condemnation of Le Pen before, and for that he should be applauded (albeit very softly). Tho as its from an article in the Daily Torygraph, I do find it hard to believe anythig thats in there. Everything else it says he says fits in rather neatly with the petty-boourgeoise, populist extreme right-winger category tho.
|
|||
|
necropolist 1689 posts |
May 07, 2002, 17:19
|
||
|
Not seen his condemnation of Le Pen before, and for that he should be applauded (albeit very softly). Tho as its from an article in the Daily Torygraph, I do find it hard to believe anythig thats in there. Everything else it says he says fits in rather neatly with the petty-boourgeoise, populist extreme right-winger category tho.
|
| Pages: 6 – [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 | Next ] | Add a reply to this topic |
|
|
|
| U-Know! Forum Index | |
