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grufty jim 1978 posts |
May 06, 2002, 19:14
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1971000/1971423.stm very mad. i recently watched a documentary on this guy (just a couple of nights ago), and remember thinking that he was the most dangerous of the European so-called "New Right", as not only was he very popular; but he was highly articulate, and frankly seemed like an amazingly nice person (funny how people with extreme beliefs can sometimes pull that off). Anyways; while i detest extreme right-wing beliefs, it saddens me that he was murdered. No good can come of violence (except where all other alternatives have been blocked). And this act can only make a martyr of the guy and provide (in some ways, justified) ammunition for other ultra- right politicians around Europe.
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Moon Cat 9577 posts |
May 06, 2002, 20:32
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I've just seen this on the news as well. I hope the matrydom thing doesn't occur. I also deplore such a brutal slaying. Doesn't seem very libertarian to go round killing anyone who's views you dont agree with, no matter how repellent those views may be. I have to say though, I found it odd that an openly gay politican would be so down on minorities and what he termed immigrants. You'd think in his position he'd at least be a little more sensitive to some of the more vulnerable and excluded members of mainstream society. Funny times indeed.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
May 06, 2002, 20:53
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In the documentary i saw, he explained his position (right-wing and openly gay) by saying that he was dismayed by the influx of moslems into Holland. He claimed that he was basically defending the famous Dutch liberalism (the very thing that allowed him to be a popular politician and openly gay at the same time) against - what he claimed - was the intolerance of Islam. Now; i happen to agree that Islam - as well as Judaism and Christianity - are dangerous and bigoted belief systems which do indeed breed intolerance and social division (and i've never tried to hide those beliefs of mine). There are a scary number of people who use religion as a justification for homophobia - and that's unacceptable in my book. However, the solution to such bigotry is clearly not *more* bigotry. And discriminating against individuals because they have been brought up with specific religious beliefs is clearly not a rational response.
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Moon Cat 9577 posts |
May 06, 2002, 23:45
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Yup.
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Mr B 53 posts |
May 07, 2002, 13:26
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' and remember thinking that he was the most dangerous of the European so-called "New Right", as not only was he very popular; but he was highly articulate, and frankly seemed like an amazingly nice person (funny how people with extreme beliefs can sometimes pull that off)' Exactly why he was shot. He was a very subversive and persuasive element in European far right politics and his death will be a positive force for harmony in the long term. He used the Islamic extremist argument as his weapon precisely because he realises it is an increasingly popular view amongst moderate 'non-racist' white Europeans. Cunning. Holland has many races living in comparitive harmony and his rise to prominence was worrying to say the least. He was a nazi. How do you martyr a nazi? He was shot because he was dangerous for all of us. Alol it takes for someone bad to do something is for someone good to do nothing. Lest we forget the holocaust. The bullets this warped person took are nothing. He took the risk by promoting his repellent views.
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spirit 182 posts |
May 07, 2002, 13:50
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i don't agree, at all killing people is very very wrong incitement to race hatred is very very wrong but you should defeat these people by rational debate and argument not bullets xx spirit
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necropolist 1689 posts |
May 07, 2002, 14:05
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hmmm, cant entirely decide here.... obviously glad the repellant piece of shit is dead. He was exactly the kind of 'new age' nazi that is really far more dangeroous even than Le Pen, or the BNP morons. As said, witty, and 'charming' somebody you might think would be pleasant to have around for dinner. But horribly, violently, dangerous. Racism has always changed the way it expresses itself - from the 'oh they're all just savages' to the 'cultural' racism of today, this guy was just doing it in another 'oh im not racist, but i am' way that would appeal to people who still wanted to think of themselves as liberals (pah!). The problem with assasination tho, is, as has beeen mentioned, the risk of creating martyrs. With an election only a fortnight away (unless they cancel it now), there will almost definitely be some increase in support for his bloc in the short-term. However, it does also appear that everyone else in there is something of a moron, so there will be no one to replace him, and hopefully it wont be long before they all disappear off the face of the earth. In which case I'll be damn glad someone shot the evil nasty little motherfucker.
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spirit 182 posts |
May 07, 2002, 14:13
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you can be glad about the outcome - he's dead - which I am without endorsing the manner in which it was brought about xx spirit circle squaring a speciality!!
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necropolist 1689 posts |
May 07, 2002, 14:19
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Sadly these people are not interested in rational debate, nor do they respond to it. They believe in violence and force. Violence is there MAIN organising tool. Whenever and wherever such Nazi groups organise, there is a substantial increase in the number of racist attacks reported. I believe in the right to go about ones daily life free from fear of assault, and possibly murder to be a greater right than that of so-called free speech (which is something of a fallacy anyway), especially for an organisation who’s whole point of existence is to deny ANY kind of freedoms to the vast majority of the human race. We may not destroy the Nazi threat by simply demanding No Platform, but it’s a start.
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spirit 182 posts |
May 07, 2002, 14:43
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I'd agree as regards for example the BNP and their supporters who have always seemed to me to be singularly uneducated and unedifying and who have made no/little attempt to hide their desire for violence. I thought the whole reason this dutch guy was so dangerous was that he appeared distanced from this and appeared to espouse a nice middle class, reasonable version of racism - more in sorrow than anger sort of thing - that your nice middle class voter could stomach without feeling they were really being racist. It was a far more insidious approach - bit like the cancer that is the Daily Mail with its constant slanted stories about millionaire beggars and immigrants abusing the system. So I would hope that those who thought of voting for him would be persuadable by rational argument - but then I've always had a panglossian world view. xx spirit
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