handofdave
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Re: Blasphemy law abolished
Mar 10, 2008, 15:15
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You are not seeing the forest for the trees.
Of course the details of religion change! Or sometimes get discarded and replaced by new religions, or even secular belief systems that substitute some grand leader for a god.
Fact is, the CENTRAL element in ALL of them, going all the way back to the most primitive animism, is that there is a spirit realm, and at the pinnacle of that a central being.
Many people claim communication with this realm, and tho the waters are muddied by people with less-than-holy intentions, how can you dismiss outright EVERY account? There are some very sensible and intelligent people out there who have had experiences that defy the materialist view of the world.
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handofdave
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Re: Blasphemy law abolished
Mar 10, 2008, 15:26
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nigelswift wrote: (Do YOU believe in fairies? Bet you don't. So why are you giving me a hard time for saying God is just a fairy story?)
The only thing I believe in with perfect confidence is that I don't know everything, and am an inherently fallible being.
I don't believe in fairies, but would I assert (with perfect confidence) that such a thing never existed? No. I can be almost 100 percent sure, but never all the way. All we have to go on is our woefully incomplete knowledge of the world.
Once upon a time, the brightest minds on the planet thought that the sky was a dome, the earth at it's center, and the sun a smaller body that rotated around the earth. As recently as within a human lifetime, we thought the milky way galaxy was the whole of the universe, until Mr.Hubble proved otherwise.
It's OK to say "The vast body of evidence precludes the existence of fairies"... it's intellectually (and I mean in it's purest form) a potential error to conclusively claim that fairies have never existed.
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nigelswift
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Re: Blasphemy law abolished
Mar 10, 2008, 15:38
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"I don't believe in fairies, but would I assert (with perfect confidence) that such a thing never existed? No. I can be almost 100 percent sure, but never all the way."
Exactly.
Now once the world is "almost 100 percent sure" there's no such thing as God, like I am, and starts acting in a way that "looks right" rather than looks "like God would think right" we'll have all grown up and the world will be a more righteous place. No more stoning of adulteresses. No more blessing of tanks. No more wasted Sunday mornings. ;)
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handofdave
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Re: Blasphemy law abolished
Mar 10, 2008, 15:49
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nigelswift wrote: "I don't believe in fairies, but would I assert (with perfect confidence) that such a thing never existed? No. I can be almost 100 percent sure, but never all the way."
Exactly.
Now once the world is "almost 100 percent sure" there's no such thing as God, like I am, and starts acting in a way that "looks right" rather than looks "like God would think right" we'll have all grown up and the world will be a more righteous place. No more stoning of adulteresses. No more blessing of tanks. No more wasted Sunday mornings. ;)
This brings us back around to the practical aspects of how to achieve that. Attacking religion wholesale just closes their ranks.
Friendly persuasion, backed up with logic, is a better tool to achieve this than insults.
We also have to face the probability that belief in God is such a strong force (and in many quarters it's unshakeable) that it will never be dented. And so the alternate plan is to ensure that the extremist religions and the fundamentalist religions are marginalized. That will require the allegiance of more moderate believers, who are more likely to side with peaceful secularists than violent or even just plain whacky scripture-thumpers.
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Littlestone
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Re: Blasphemy law abolished
Mar 10, 2008, 16:14
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You are not seeing the forest for the trees.
Ahh... now that's interesting, because while one can be sure that what one can see are trees one can't always be sure that they form a forest... if you get my drift. In other words, one can appreciate the cultural facets of a religion (Gothic cathedrals for example) but it takes a leap of faith (something I'm not very good at) to extend that appreciation and believe the cathedral is the house of god :-)
Fact is, the CENTRAL element in ALL of them, going all the way back to the most primitive animism, is that there is a spirit realm, and at the pinnacle of that a central being.
Actually, I can think of one religion (Shinto) were there is no central being. There are kami and they are everywhere - in trees, rocks, springs and waterfalls. Taoism is possibly another candidate, though as with Buddhism it's not strictly a religion.
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handofdave
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Re: Blasphemy law abolished
Mar 10, 2008, 16:22
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OK, I cede you the central being not being part of Shintoism, but the spirit realm thing is still there.
Anyway, gotta go earn my keep- thanks for a vigorous debate.
See ya!
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Vybik Jon
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God Doesn't Exist
Mar 10, 2008, 16:51
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Just to avoid any confusion.
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moss
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Re: God Doesn't Exist
Mar 10, 2008, 17:32
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Trouble is you can't prove it ;)
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Vybik Jon
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Re: God Doesn't Exist
Mar 10, 2008, 17:34
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No, but I believe it.
That seeme to be the gist of all this.
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Jane
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Re: Blasphemy law abolished
Mar 10, 2008, 18:00
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No, no no, I'm not advocating abolishing religion. That, as we know is impossible, stupid and counter-productive. People should have the freedom to worship whatever malevolent invisible sky god they like. But no sky god's followers should have the privilege to trump the way a country is run.
handofdave wrote: Am I for the strict separation of Church and State? You bet. Yes!!!! That's pure secularism and what I advocate. If religious people could only see it benefits THEM too - protecting their right to worship whatever they want - they'd be all for it. Everyone's a winner, baby, that's truth.
Sorry I've come to this discussion a bit late which is a bit of a pisser as I started it. :-(
J
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