grufty jim
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retribution
Nov 07, 2001, 14:14
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i'm not claiming it's "merely retribution". rather it's an attempt to annihilate a movement that america sees as a genuine threat (as indeed it could well be... i sure as hell don't know if al-Qaida are capable of a nuclear attack, but i don't dismiss the possibility completely - i can remember a time when bio-terrorism was a science-fiction plot-line... not long ago now.
what else is changing as we speak?
g.jim.
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grufty jim
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Re: daisy cutter news article
Nov 07, 2001, 14:16
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anyone else remember the "Day Today" WAR! episode?
"... and the air here is filled with what they call, the desert cornflakes..."
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FourWinds
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Re: (no hidden agenda)
Nov 07, 2001, 14:19
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I have now had time to read your article as thoroughly as possible at work and would pose the following for contemplation.
You use the fact that the bigger market is the US & Europe in your arguments for route choice. I would say that the bigger 'growing' market is the east with it's industrial growth needs. Also the countries in the east do not use their quota of pollution production yet that may be introduced through Kyoto.
If this gets retified (and I think it will now that Japan have come on line) then the east will grow even more rapidly due to their ability to take in more dirty industry. There for they will need oil and gas and a more direct supply route will be needed.
This is an argument I think it is hard to ignore or dismiss and one I have not yet seen addressed anywhere.
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FourWinds
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Re: retribution
Nov 07, 2001, 14:21
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I did not mean to sound as if I was accusing you of thinking that. Sorry if that's how it read.
I was actually addressing Morfe's posting, because I (probably incorrectly) took it that he was accusing the rest of us of being silly conspiracy pricks.
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grufty jim
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no hidden agenda
Nov 07, 2001, 14:26
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actually, i feel i do address that issue. you must remember that i come from a Jean Lahérre / Colin Campbell perspective on this issue (ie that oil is running out faster than people are admitting) and that puts an added spin on the issue of future security for supply routes (i don't address that issue specifically, as it's a much longer discussion - and may well form the basis of a book i'm toying with writing on the subject).
however, i'd submit that this section of my piece does cover your concerns:
[][][][][][][]
I would humbly submit that a pipeline through Afghanistan would have the net global effect of aiding in the _consolidation_, and not the diversification, of energy supply. Certainly it would diversify the distribution of Caspian oil, but only by running it towards the area on the globe where almost half our oil is already sourced. Does the United States truly want another of its major energy sources to be located in the Arabian Sea? Also, growth in European oil consumption may be slow compared with some areas of Asia, but with oil being piped directly from the Caspian area to Europe, it will free up Saudi supplies currently tankered through the Suez to meet that market, which can then be diverted to the Asian markets where consumption is rising. Europe, just like the United States, is seeking to meet its energy requirements with less reliance on the Middle East. The Caspian fields will aid them in that task (though perhaps not for as long as they'd like). Monbiot's claim also ignores the fact that oil loaded onto tankers in Ceyhan, Turkey, can be sold in Asia just as easily as anywhere else. The time saved by pumping it to Pakistan and loading it on the Arabian Sea coastline, will not make up for the added security risk, and the political instability inherent in the area.
[][][][][][][][][]
direct pipeline routes to east or southeast asia have never been considered via afghanistan. is that your contention? that brings all manner of other technical and political issues into the equation, that would require yet another long article (perhaps that book isn't so unlikely a project after all!)
g.jim.
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morfe
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Re: retribution
Nov 07, 2001, 14:32
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Now THAT was a silly-prick conspiracy theory. Tsk.
I've actually been involved in various debates on forums since the 9/11 business, and my above comments were very generalised, I wasn't referring to you at all FW, Iwas referring to the two polarised camps that seem to miss all the points, and don't we all in this age of mis-information?, the people I have to criticise are the jobs-worths/brown-nosers and dictators who keep the arms/terror business in a job.
As Jim sais, it's more outlandish given historical models to imagine there ISN'T some hidden agenda, yet in no way do I believe any/some of those to be the entire raison d'etre in this campaign. Stupidity has a lot to do with it, and insecurity even more.
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FourWinds
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Re: no hidden agenda
Nov 07, 2001, 14:41
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I think with the amount of effort you have obviously put into this area of concern you must have the material for a book. Reserve me a copy now please.
My reference to 'uncovered' issues was actually the Kyoto agreement pollution laws, not the consideration of pipelines through afghanistan.
The market at the moment may not be the issue, but the market in several years time certainly is.
With more and more US comapnies shitting on the people of the 'third world' or to them the 'other world' by exploiting cheap labour and soon the respective countries pollution quota I consider that this may be a major factor in the near future. I don't think that anyone will tell me that the oil companies are not thinking about this.
The security issues are a major factor and so is the 'instability' of the area, but isn't the stability about to change?
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FourWinds
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Infamy, infamy .....
Nov 07, 2001, 14:44
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I know you weren't directly refering to me. Perhaps I thought I'd left myself too wide open to similar claims and went on the defensive. Sorry bud. I know you know me better than that, as I do you.
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morfe
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Re: Afghanistan
Nov 07, 2001, 14:46
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Thanks mate. Yes of course they'll have a fucking marketing campaign for it. Some stuffed fuck stands there and espouses (in smug, self satisfied 'oh god i won't beat offf here but save it for later' fashion) the benefits of dropping something that weighs 5,00Ib with a 'smart fuse' (wags ironic quote fingers).
And how fucking smart are we? How many billions does it take to get a guy out of a cave?
"This is then ignited by a second detonator, scorching the surrounding area, consuming oxygen and creating a shock wave and vacuum pressure that destroys the internal organs of anyone within range. The bomb has the ability to clear a three-mile path through a minefield."
Oppose with all our might these terrible things that someone's daddy builds.
Thanks again for the link CB, it's sent me off one one again... (PS, I have a pierced nose).
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stray
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Re: Afghanistan
Nov 07, 2001, 14:56
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Heh. Hands up who didn't know morfe had a pierced nose.
*stray reaches for the floor*
There, that's setlled then. ;)
A Tangential : Bob Cobbing, Birdyak and the usual *ur...eh!!..wtf* looking like being on the 30th November.
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