elegant chaos
|
Afghanistan
Nov 07, 2001, 09:22
|
A quote from todays Mirror: "Anti-terror investigators now believe the hijackers were a hand-picked group who had little, if any, contact with al-Qaeda".
SO WHY THE HELL ARE WE BOMBING AFGHANISTAN???
Is it, as has been said, so the US can get their grubby hands on a new pipeline running from Uzebekhistan, through Afghanistan, to benefit the region? Are civilians dying not for justice, but for oil???
|
FourWinds
|
Oil of course
Nov 07, 2001, 09:37
|
|
nuff said.
|
grufty jim
|
Nothing to do with oil
Nov 07, 2001, 10:10
|
i'm the first one to look for hidden agendas and dubious motives when it comes to things like this. however, extensive research into energy issues and oil depletion (going back two or three years) has convinced me that afghanistan has little or not strategic value from an oil point of view.
many have said "oil" when asked why the US is bombing afghanistan (George Monbiot and John Pilger are just two of the luminaries who fall into that camp). but that conclusion appears (to me) to be the result of a level of laziness when it comes to research.
i've written a (very) long article examining the actual facts - as opposed to the supposition - regarding Caspian Sea oil export routes. if you are truly interested in the facts behind this theory, then i urge you to at least check it out:
http://www.tengai.co.uk/jim/caspian/
g.jim.
ps: the article unreservedly calls for the immediate cessation of military activity in afghanistan. one doesn't require dodgy oil politics to justify the ending of mass murder.
|
grufty jim
|
(no hidden agenda)
Nov 07, 2001, 10:19
|
as a postscript to the last message; my article ( http://www.tengai.co.uk/jim/caspian ) contains links to a number of 'pop-up' footnotes (purple links as opposed to green ones). the last one of these - in the penultimate paragraph - explains my theory on why it's all happening - and you have to admit; the idea that the US is waging a military campaign _without_ a hidden agenda is just as radical an idea as any conspiracy theorist could come up with!
g.jim.
|
FourWinds
|
Doing it because we can
Nov 07, 2001, 10:48
|
I am perfectly willing to accept they are waging war simply because they want to or just simply because they are wankers with too much spare time and no imagination.
I will read your article later, but for now I do tend towards the 'shortest route for a pipeline' theory.
|
grufty jim
|
Re: Doing it because we can
Nov 07, 2001, 10:57
|
i don't deny the possibility of a hidden agenda of some kind; it's just there's no sodding evidence to suggest it's a pipeline issue - and plenty (huge amounts) to show why it isn't.
if you do have any evidence for your belief that it's a pipeline (by the way - the afghan route is a long way from being the shortest) please let me know as my own research hasn't brought any to light and i would be tremendously interested in hearing it (as i say - oil politics is a personal obsession of mine; i've been studying the subject almost 3 years now).
if however, you believe the US is there for reasons to do with an oil pipeline but don;t have any actual evidence then that's cool too. i tend not to go for the faith-based approach to these things, but i don't get fundamentalist about it :-)
g.jim.
|
FourWinds
|
Re: Doing it because we can
Nov 07, 2001, 11:09
|
Part of the info I was going by can be found here
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/caspgrph.html
You are right about it not being the shortest route to the sea. I fyou look at the map at the foot of the page, there are proposals by the Pakistan gov't to build a pipeline through Afghanistan and also an existing (I believe) unused one through Afghanistan that serviced Pakistan. These pipelines would mean boith work and income for Pakistan, maybe this is the reason for their involvement, because the Taliban said no to the plans.
I don't know, I wasn't there at the meetings but it's all a bit suspicious.
|
grufty jim
|
yeah - it does look odd, but...
Nov 07, 2001, 11:34
|
it's a very complicated subject (i was going to do the article for U-Know, but realised it would far exceed the character limit by necessity) and it's very easy to pick out isolated pieces of information, which out of context, can seem significant (John Pilger's speculation that the oil reserves in the caspian could last America for a generation can be backed up with EIA figures, but shown to be utterly ludicrous with other EIA figures, for example).
the EIA site is quoted heavily in my article by the way; so i'm aware of the proposals by CentGas and their one-time partner, Unocal. but i think i've shown in the piece why these proposals cannot be the reason America is bombing afghanistan (and i don't even go into the technical difficulties in any great depth. but building a pipeline in the Himalayas in the nation with the world's highest density of landmines is something most companies would try to avoid getting into if there were other options... and there's plenty of other options).
anyways, i believe i've presented the facts as they can be reasonably assumed to be (the politics of that region spins my head), and i've drawn some fairly rational conclusions i feel. but, of course, make up your own mind - and in the words of the great prophet Leary... "question everything" (which is actually the advice i was following when i started obsessing about the oil politics and economics 3 years ago - you wouldn't believe how completely messed up the energy industry is - seriously!)
|
FourWinds
|
Re: yeah - it does look odd, but...
Nov 07, 2001, 11:53
|
I'm sorry if my (perhaps) ignorance frustrates you, but I am here to learn as well as opine.
In some issues I have to bow to your longer involvement and more extensive research in these matters, but only because it does look well researched. Like you quote .. "Question everything."
The issue of companies not wanting to put a pipeline through a landmine infested country though I do not see as a barrier. Afterall, it is not the executives and share holders who will be out there building the damn thing, they will be just reaping the profits. The people out there are just a bunch of savages with towels on their heads who will work for 5p a day, and what does it matter if a few of them get blown up?
Considerations like that have never really stopped the oil industry doing amazing stupid things before as you well know.
|
FourWinds
|
Re: Afghanistan
Nov 07, 2001, 11:57
|
What really does piss me off is the constant reports (and bragging) that "Today we started dropping even bigger boombs on them".
In fact last night saw the use of a 7000kg bomb ... SEVEN TONS EACH !!!! The biggest bomb in the US arenal short of a nuke!
Where do we go from here?
|
