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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Sep 10, 2003, 00:03
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Ahhh . . . memes! :-)
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morfe lux 301 posts |
Sep 10, 2003, 16:47
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Unfortunately exploitation isn't governed by what I call 'common' sense, nor is it likely to be in the near future? I've already stated I don't believe in Utopia. But I believe in ingenuity and respect for the world around us. It's 'common sense' for some people to cut corners because they get what they want so much easier. Coltan buyers use 'common sense' when turning a blind eye to the warlords who enslave the miners in Africa, surely it's 'common sense' to them to get quick profits and keep out of arguments whilst selling cell phones like hot cakes. I argue that it's common sense NOT to support/ encourage violence and exploitaion by proxy. It makes sense NOT to support violence and make people suffer MORE than it makes sense to make a profit for a luxury item. Of course, therein comes the policing element, and I agree, is fraught with ethical arguments, as is any element of force. Of course,capitalism is fed by the buyer, and the buyer can (in some cases) decide for themselves whether or not they are supporting exploitation/pollution/glowing radiocatibe babies or whatnot. But it DOESN'T work like that, such people who close their purse are in a miniscule minority, because of A. No information available at point of sale (of course otherwise it wouldn't get sold so easily ) and B. They want things, and they want them NOW. Who decides when human life becomes more important than 'luxury' item for the west. Who decides when rubber plantations are outstripping the rainforest at a level that is more environmentally damaging than were the rubber harvesters to lose their livelihoods. Nothing can be done ad hoc, without replacing damaging systems with better, common sense ones. I agree with you to a point, the most we can do is hold a mirror at the face of the criminal. But wouldn't SOMETIMES it be easier to make his activity criminal in the eyes of the law? All peoples are governed by law, we have taken our selves SO far away from the old tribal laws (which were born from a necessity to conserve and respect the land) that we can pretty much do what the fuck we like as long as we have enough dollar. I don't call that progress, any more than you don't like laws.
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morfe lux 301 posts |
Sep 10, 2003, 17:08
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"Actually I'm feeling all Deluzian now, have you read 'mille plateau' Morfe ?" Hey wot? Nah, I'm not the intellectual type am afraid, just another schmuck in this big old world of schmucks (kicks heels). This whole debate has just reinforced how politically immature I am . I'm glad for that in a lot of ways because I was always the kid who said "I don't trust politics", as if 'politics' was some insalubrious entity that floated around and caused general confusion and insecurity of the masses, for the gain of it's followers. Whats mille plateau say? Is it better than The Woodlanders?? ;-)
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morfe lux 301 posts |
Sep 10, 2003, 17:23
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"Object to cos you won't say how these laws are passed or enforced." I'd prefer you to object to something because it's a bad idea, rather than because I don't have the theoretical or actual means to hand? It's pointless (hypothetically) figuring out how to get this big fuckoff stone in to that distant field without first knowing: A: Do we want a stone in that field and why. And B: Is having that stone in that field a bad idea. "The best way to attack to improve things is by acting dfifferently, like a little role model (without being judgmental of others or feeling superior in any way)." So would you be a role model and get locked up for dismantling a missile if you could have convinced a population to unite to outlaw the missile? "And without being a leader, guru or equally wrong type of person. " I leave that to politics and business, that's where the gurus are, and some weird cults. " Be a meme and hope your mentality catches like a virus. Don't even think about improving what we have. It'll only lead to more bloodshed and BS." Everything we say from honesty improves what we have. As for memes, they are useful but also are propagandist, so I'm wary of the same message being repeated over and over. Honest inquiry is sometimes better. I started this thread becaue I was conscious of a meme "capitalism is the cause of all the world's evil". I thought that was lazy, and even more dangerous when we are at the brink of consumer sponsored fascist eruption. And I just like debating. "Yes, living outside the system is completely impossible. But attempting to is very pretty to watch, and worthwhile for that reason alone. Kicking the bastards when they do evil, holding a mirror to them, thats all any of us can sensibly do." So leave it as it is and complain a bit? (OOOYAH!)
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morfe lux 301 posts |
Sep 10, 2003, 19:02
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"So would you be a role model and get locked up for dismantling a missile if you could have convinced a population to unite to outlaw the missile?" Note to self: Morfe that's a shit statement and a poor reply.
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Sep 10, 2003, 21:08
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I you believe in the cause, why not get arrested to rally support for your cause? It worked for Ghandi and MLK.
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morfe lux 301 posts |
Sep 10, 2003, 21:13
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They're dead! And a thousand Ghandi's is better than one martyr, courage of one individual is great, but it no way beats the cowardice of a million.
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morfe lux 301 posts |
Sep 10, 2003, 21:19
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"The world's 225 richest people have a combined wealth equal to the combined annual income of the world's 2.5 billion poorest people. A 4 percent levy on their wealth would provide adequate food, safe water and sanitation, basic education, basic health care and reproductive health care for all those in the developing countries. " Is inequality fundamental to the workings of Capitalism?
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Dog 3000 4611 posts |
Sep 10, 2003, 21:33
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Isn't inequality fundamental to the human condition, period? I don't see how it's possible for everyone to be equally rich, but we could all be equally poor (as was the case a few thousand years ago more or less.) How is that better? Always strikes me as odd the combination of "jealousy towards the rich" while simultaneously wanting to reject the quest for wealth. I don't get so incenced about some people being richer than me. Good for them. Look: I lived in the "big city" for seven years until I couldn't take the polution, traffic, noise, etc. anymore. So I moved to a smaller town where I make a lot less money (and also have much lower living expenses) and on the whole I am happier with less. Seems like you live in the "big city" too -- well, why? You can leave if you want can't you? Isn't it your "choice" to be there? What makes you stay if you hate "living in a box"?
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morfe lux 301 posts |
Sep 10, 2003, 21:55
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I have to be with and support my wife and stepson, he is educated here and we want him to finish school here. I am trying to earn enough to buy a house for us back in the UK in 5 years so we can continue a humanitarian/environmental project. This is hard for me, not being a 'natural' capitalist (although we are told that it is the 'natural' instinct), but I need to live back in the countryside as i simply fall (mentally) sick in the city, it makes me want to curl up and die being surrounded by so much noise, dirt, lies, consumerism, waste and desperation. I love to walk across the landscape, and feel the ground, and smell the air, it's food for me. I don't believe my disdain at being 'owned' amounts to jealousy. I'm going to have to earn a shitload to even live in a bedroomed apt instead of a rented apt where we don't even have our own bedroom. It's far far worse for the people who i see lay in the street every night. It's tough, but we all make it tough, by accepting that that's the way it is. It's tougher for some than others. My wife works as a mental health technician in a crisis centre, funded by a private charity. So many people in there cannot respond adequately to the cut and thrust of a competitive environment, so they get thrown on the scrap heap. I hate that shit. Fucking bleeding heart liberal, moaning hippy that I am!
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