Head To Head
Log In
Register
The Modern Antiquarian Forum »
Places of worship
Log In to post a reply

Pages: 3 – [ 1 2 3 | Next ]
Topic View: Flat | Threaded
Evergreen Dazed
1881 posts

Places of worship
Aug 01, 2017, 13:37
Just a thought really, and it ties in to some extent with an earlier conversation about interpersonal violence, but is there any reason not to interpret the people who built the major wessex monuments, for example, as members of an authoritarian, elitist, dictatorial, religious cult?
It seems a far more likely scenario to me than any idea of a 'Golden age'.
I understand it might not be a particularly pleasant thing to think about if you like visiting these places (as I do). And from that thought, is part of our fascination with prehistoric archaeology merely tied up in the rare luxury of being able to project thoughts, dreams or ideas onto what is largely a blank canvas? Why did what we might call the 'new age' movement adopt these places? Especially when they have so many similarities to christian places of worship?

I'm typing quickly, short on time, would have preferred to explain my thoughts more thoroughly, but i'm sure you get the drift. thought it might make for a decent discussion.
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 01, 2017, 14:35
It is a good topic for discussion. Some places seem score more on the likelihood scale and those places often seem to have a place of early (and then later) Christian worship superimposed on them. Am thinking particularly of Kilmartin with all its cairns, one dating back to the Neolithic; all the standing stones and of course rock art. The Ormaig rock carving are on a hillside overlooking Loch Craignish and seem to sign the way towards Kilmartin - as you draw near to Kilmartin two large standing stones appear, only really visible from that direction - way-markers perhaps. Kilmartin now has a church with some very early christian carved grave stones in its small cemetery but it is the prehistoric cairn cemetery which dominates the landscape. I cannot believe this was not a place of worship pre-Christian. Opposite Ormaig on the other side of Loch Crainish are the remains of a very early Christian chapel and others all around the area. The Irish traveled there for some reason and it is certain people traveled between Ireland and the west coast of Scotland prior to Christianity - the religion may have changed but the people were the same.
ironstone
62 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 01, 2017, 14:42
I think the answer to your first paragraph is 'yes, of course they might well have been.' As soon as religious/spritual belief acquired (or required) priests/elders etc to 'interpret' what nature was doing (and hence all the various gods and the heirarchies they spawned) it seems to me that almost by their very nature these 'movements' would have become dogmatic and authoritarian. However, bear in mind that in the Neolithic/Bronze Ages people's primary loyalties/attachments would have been to their immediate locality and family groups (rather than to a tribe, let alone a nation or other wider sphere of identification) so perhaps there would have been less scope for the sort of mass indoctrination or subjugation one commonly associates with cults or dictatorial setups. The stuff Mike Parker Pearson has done in floating this idea of people gathering seasonally to build/participate in rituals at Stonehenge is suggestive of a 'persuasive' (for want of a better word) element in being able to galvanise such a relatively large proportion of the population but I guess we'll never be able to understand the extent to which it was all hippy-dippy peace 'n love as opposed to creepily coercive. For me that's what makes these sites so enigmatic, the fact that we simply do not know the how, why and what and so yes, we're able to project our own sympathies/fancies.
Good question; would love to know the answer.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 01, 2017, 15:39
Evergreen Dazed wrote:

Why did what we might call the 'new age' movement adopt these places?



No doubt that a lot of New age / Neo pagan beliefs about ancient monuments derive from Gerald Gardner , Margaret Murray and the Wiccan movement's adoption of them and their associated folklore .
Ethan Doyle White wrote “ a great paper “ Devil's Stones and Midnight Rites: Megaliths,Folklore, and Contemporary Pagan Witchcraft “ in the Folklore journal . http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0015587X.2013.860766?journalCode=rfol20

Add a dash of Watkins' ley lines , which later became the unfalsifiable “Earth energies “ when the problems about the earlier “vision” became clear , a touch of ancient computing didn't go amiss either .
Howburn Digger
Howburn Digger
986 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 01, 2017, 20:11
tjj wrote:
It is a good topic for discussion. Some places seem score more on the likelihood scale and those places often seem to have a place of early (and then later) Christian worship superimposed on them. Am thinking particularly of Kilmartin with all its cairns, one dating back to the Neolithic; all the standing stones and of course rock art. The Ormaig rock carving are on a hillside overlooking Loch Craignish and seem to sign the way towards Kilmartin - as you draw near to Kilmartin two large standing stones appear, only really visible from that direction - way-markers perhaps. Kilmartin now has a church with some very early christian carved grave stones in its small cemetery but it is the prehistoric cairn cemetery which dominates the landscape. I cannot believe this was not a place of worship pre-Christian. Opposite Ormaig on the other side of Loch Crainish are the remains of a very early Christian chapel and others all around the area. The Irish traveled there for some reason and it is certain people traveled between Ireland and the west coast of Scotland prior to Christianity - the religion may have changed but the people were the same.


There is another early Christian site near Loch Awe you should see.

The sites from Ormaig and Loch Craignish extend far to the North. I would suggest they extend well beyond the Barbreck River Valley, beyond Seil, Easdale and Kilmelford and the wee valley of Loch Nell (East of Oban) and Strontoiller, on past the massive cairns beyond the tidal Falls of Lora and as far as the many cairns at Benderloch and Creran. Even Lismore is infested. There are forts, duns, settlements, cists, cairns, chambered cairns and some RA.
South from Loch Craignish is of course Kintraw (with its massive cock "waymarker") and then the Kilmartin Valley, the Kintyre Peninsula and Isle of Arran. All hoaching with antiquities from the Neolithic to the IA. Some Mesolithic too. They all form a long arm North of The Irish Sea and have some individual peculiarities which have been noted in some of their cairn constructions etc.

They are all on an abundantly plentiful seaboard of what is now called Western Scotland. The broad flat Kilmartin Valley with Carnbaan and Dunadd at its Southern end are the widest and easiest worked agricultural land, the river valleys and coastal strips I mentioned above are next best. The whole area is still plentiful in Sea Fish and shellfish. Salmon and Sea Trout runs are still quite good (though hardly 1% of what they would have been in the BA and early Iron Age). It was Fat Land and they lived very well off it.

The evidence is these early people lived and died on abundantly nourishing coastal and fertile river valley areas. The evidence is that early people made the sea journeys specifically to take advantage of the plentiful food available. Sometimes returning for seasonal migratory fish. They also took great care in burying their dead. Some of the later occupants of these areas we know about, were seafarers (from what is now Norn Irn but even Irn didn't exist then) who lived on the land and islands and their Christian stowaways who built and worshipped in their wee chapels and churches. I've never seen or heard of any evidence of pre-Christian religious worship in Kilmartin. I've seen plenty evidence of Life... creative and groovy RA, shell middens, stone tools, later Bronze implements, Neolithic Cairns, BA Cairns... but not any evidence of religious worship.
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 01, 2017, 20:51
Howburn Digger wrote:

There is another early Christian site near Loch Awe you should see.

The sites from Ormaig and Loch Craignish extend far to the North. I would suggest they extend well beyond the Barbreck River Valley, beyond Seil, Easdale and Kilmelford and the wee valley of Loch Nell (East of Oban) and Strontoiller, on past the massive cairns beyond the tidal Falls of Lora and as far as the many cairns at Benderloch and Creran. Even Lismore is infested. There are forts, duns, settlements, cists, cairns, chambered cairns and some RA.
South from Loch Craignish is of course Kintraw (with its massive cock "waymarker") and then the Kilmartin Valley, the Kintyre Peninsula and Isle of Arran. All hoaching with antiquities from the Neolithic to the IA. Some Mesolithic too. They all form a long arm North of The Irish Sea and have some individual peculiarities which have been noted in some of their cairn constructions etc.

They are all on an abundantly plentiful seaboard of what is now called Western Scotland. The broad flat Kilmartin Valley with Carnbaan and Dunadd at its Southern end are the widest and easiest worked agricultural land, the river valleys and coastal strips I mentioned above are next best. The whole area is still plentiful in Sea Fish and shellfish. Salmon and Sea Trout runs are still quite good (though hardly 1% of what they would have been in the BA and early Iron Age). It was Fat Land and they lived very well off it.

The evidence is these early people lived and died on abundantly nourishing coastal and fertile river valley areas. The evidence is that early people made the sea journeys specifically to take advantage of the plentiful food available. Sometimes returning for seasonal migratory fish. They also took great care in burying their dead. Some of the later occupants of these areas we know about, were seafarers (from what is now Norn Irn but even Irn didn't exist then) who lived on the land and islands and their Christian stowaways who built and worshipped in their wee chapels and churches. I've never seen or heard of any evidence of pre-Christian religious worship in Kilmartin. I've seen plenty evidence of Life... creative and groovy RA, shell middens, stone tools, later Bronze implements, Neolithic Cairns, BA Cairns... but not any evidence of religious worship.


Thanks HD, a fascinating and informative post. I did get as far as Oban, Seil and Easdale/Ellenabeich ten years ago when I made what for me was something of a 'pilgrimage to Iona - totally inspired by Mike Scott's song 'Peace of Iona'. Going across the Clachan Bridge to Seil was the first time I experienced that 'blue' - the blue of the sea and sky up there on a clear day. It moved me in way I'm afraid Iona didn't.

Going back to your post - as you say plenty of evidence of Life and Death but no none of religious worship. And we don't know what that was of course but looking at the burial sites of both Neolithic and Bronze Age it does seem safe to assume their ancestors were of ultimate importance. Further south in the British Isles too - perhaps these magnificent burial sites doubled as places of worship. Who knows.
Evergreen Dazed
1881 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 02, 2017, 08:26
Howburn Digger wrote:
I've never seen or heard of any evidence of pre-Christian religious worship in Kilmartin. I've seen plenty evidence of Life... creative and groovy RA, shell middens, stone tools, later Bronze implements, Neolithic Cairns, BA Cairns... but not any evidence of religious worship.


How are you identifying that absence? What isn't there that you consider should be there as evidence of religious worship?
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6210 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 02, 2017, 17:40
And to throw in a cliche, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Especially given how long ago we're talking about.

An entire religious belief system can founded on feathered hats and big sticks. You don't need a building to have a religion.
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 02, 2017, 17:54
thesweetcheat wrote:
You don't need a building to have a religion.


Quite right - Just a belief will do.
moss
moss
2897 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 10:44
" I've seen plenty evidence of Life... creative and groovy RA, shell middens, stone tools, later Bronze implements, Neolithic Cairns, BA Cairns... but not any evidence of religious worship."

Having a 'belief' stands at the core of the human psyche - yes I know you modern sceptics would argue otherwise - but I am with HD that life through survival and work is the important factor in most human societies. Alignments of stones could be as much to do with seasonal and practical stuff.
Religion is a teaching mechanism, a way of keeping people in control, if there is any parallel than look at the decoration of churches over the centuries compared to the stones, and interpret the stories they are telling, if you can of course.
Pages: 3 – [ 1 2 3 | Next ] Add a reply to this topic

The Modern Antiquarian Forum Index