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Evergreen Dazed
1881 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 11:45
moss wrote:
" I've seen plenty evidence of Life... creative and groovy RA, shell middens, stone tools, later Bronze implements, Neolithic Cairns, BA Cairns... but not any evidence of religious worship."

Having a 'belief' stands at the core of the human psyche - yes I know you modern sceptics would argue otherwise - but I am with HD that life through survival and work is the important factor in most human societies. Alignments of stones could be as much to do with seasonal and practical stuff.
Religion is a teaching mechanism, a way of keeping people in control, if there is any parallel than look at the decoration of churches over the centuries compared to the stones, and interpret the stories they are telling, if you can of course.


'modern sceptic' is one of the last phrases I'd use to describe myself, but perhaps you know better having never met or spoken to me about anything in any kind of depth.
Do you mean 'person who doesn't automatically believe all sorts of bullshit promoted by nearly always ill-informed internet dickheads?', if so that fits a bit better.

So how do you view, say, the intentional breaking and watery deposition of various tools or accoutrements, if not in a religious sense?
I'm not saying something like that is proof of prehistoric religion, of course.

Do you think, say, a costwold-severn long barrow had a practical purpose?

A decorated stone covering a cist at nether largie is that practical? something to do with the seasons?

A huge, non-defensive, bank and ditch at avebury, is that practical? something what about a formalised avenue of stones?

Aberdeenshire stone balls, obviously practical?

Silbury hill with it's 'layers'?

Uragh - A calendar I suppose?

Even some of the feckin pottery is impractical.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 11:50
moss wrote:
"Alignments of stones could be as much to do with seasonal and practical stuff.


Carnac and other stone rows i.e. those on Dartmoor may or may not have been used seasonally , but practical ? Do tell .

Would you extend that to stone circles , cursus , henges , passage graves ,long barrows etc ?
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 12:28
"Do you mean 'person who doesn't automatically believe all sorts of bullshit promoted by nearly always ill-informed internet dickheads?', if so that fits a bit better."

Yeah, that probably describes me too, but I'd also stress "always open for evidence". That's evidence, not non-evidence.
Evergreen Dazed
1881 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 13:27
tiompan wrote:
moss wrote:
"Alignments of stones could be as much to do with seasonal and practical stuff.


Carnac and other stone rows i.e. those on Dartmoor may or may not have been used seasonally , but practical ? Do tell .

Would you extend that to stone circles , cursus , henges , passage graves ,long barrows etc ?


I'd love to hear somebody theorise on practical uses for the dorset cursus. or cleaven dyke perhaps. i'm sure it would be absolute gold.

Chalk phalluses might have been practical, but it's probably best we don't think about it.
Evergreen Dazed
1881 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 13:27
nigelswift wrote:
"Do you mean 'person who doesn't automatically believe all sorts of bullshit promoted by nearly always ill-informed internet dickheads?', if so that fits a bit better."

Yeah, that probably describes me too, but I'd also stress "always open for evidence". That's evidence, not non-evidence.


aye, indeed.
ironstone
62 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 14:49
I may be sticking my head in the oven here but to deny the probability that many (not necessarily all) of the varied monuments had some religious/ritual/spiritual function or purpose would seem to me to be wilfully obtuse regardless of whether or not one is religious oneself or completely atheistic. I think I'm right in saying that the earliest monuments were associated with death/burial (I use that term loosely) and then I think of Christopher Hitchens' point that humankind will only forego religion entirely when it sheds its fear of death; put the two together and you can see how a reverence of dying and the dead, with the associated construction of impressive monuments, leads into a belief-system which requires similar structures to be built to give it substance/authority, what you will. I know archaeologists always get defensive about ascribing 'ritual' as a function for a monument but it seems a more-than-reasonable conjecture; whether in the case of the big ones their builders/guardians were wholly benign or fanatical/authoritarian is something we'll just never know. Known history suggests the bigger, the more dogmatic.
Evergreen Dazed
1881 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 15:23
ironstone wrote:
I may be sticking my head in the oven here but to deny the probability that many (not necessarily all) of the varied monuments had some religious/ritual/spiritual function or purpose would seem to me to be wilfully obtuse regardless of whether or not one is religious oneself or completely atheistic. I think I'm right in saying that the earliest monuments were associated with death/burial (I use that term loosely) and then I think of Christopher Hitchens' point that humankind will only forego religion entirely when it sheds its fear of death; put the two together and you can see how a reverence of dying and the dead, with the associated construction of impressive monuments, leads into a belief-system which requires similar structures to be built to give it substance/authority, what you will. I know archaeologists always get defensive about ascribing 'ritual' as a function for a monument but it seems a more-than-reasonable conjecture; whether in the case of the big ones their builders/guardians were wholly benign or fanatical/authoritarian is something we'll just never know. Known history suggests the bigger, the more dogmatic.


I quite agree. I'm puzzled as to why some ascribe a golden age type scenario to the societies that built and used these monuments. It doesn't seem to make sense. I understand the 'romance', if you will, and that I suppose is a large part of it, the mystery, but in my mind all points toward organised religion of some sort.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6216 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 18:16
With no apologies for bringing the Romans in, have you been following the "diversity in Roman Britain" kerfuffle?

A great example of genuine expertise v ill-informed bullshit. With sexism.

Mary Beard is fucking great though: https://www.the-tls.co.uk/roman-britain-black-white/
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 18:37
thesweetcheat wrote:
With no apologies for bringing the Romans in, have you been following the "diversity in Roman Britain" kerfuffle?

A great example of genuine expertise v ill-informed bullshit. With sexism.

Mary Beard is fucking great though: https://www.the-tls.co.uk/roman-britain-black-white/


Pity that the genetic evidence wasn't being used to show that long before the Romans , what is now Britain was previously populated by waves of incomers .
Also worth mentioning that lack of evidence of a particular marker doesn't mean that it wasn't present earlier .This is a common finding among invaders , other examples apart from the Romans is the lack of Danish, Norman and Viking genes in the later English population , they are uncommon but there is no doubt about their earlier presence .Possible explanation is lack of intermarriage and as has been suggested in some cases the killing of those who could be seen as "collaborating "with the invaders .
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Places of worship
Aug 03, 2017, 19:50
There is some evidence that matriarchy preceded patriarchy in prehistoric religious worship i.e. the mother goddess was revered/worshiped prior to farming, cities and writing. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of artifacts to suggest Minoan/Ancient Greek religions made it to the British Isles but nothing to suggest they didn't either.
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