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UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
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GLADMAN
950 posts

Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
Feb 11, 2012, 12:22
tiompan wrote:
There is quite a difference between the mounds of long barrows , passage tombs etc and the cairns that surrounded portal tombs .
The former dwarf the latter have kerb stones and are not composed of stones to anything like the same extent . It is this differece that could explain why some cairns were removed i.e. a useful source of stone .Furthermore none have been shown to cover the capstone suggesting the possibility that not only stabilising the orthostats the purpose may have also been to help the raise the capstone .


There is also the point of the aesthetic form and sheer substantial nature of many surviving capstones. I'm no structural engineer, but I've often been struck by just how impressive they are in relation to a role of merely roofing over a chamber, suggesting that surely there must have been some requirement towards display. Why go to all that trouble then pile rock or earth over the top? I understand this is looking at it from a 21st century viewpoint, and the fact that the gods would know it was impressive regardless might have been enough, but I would have thought human vanity - ours is better than theirs - would have played a part.

Agree with the source of stone point.... clearly Iron Age culture generally respected/feared cairns as representing a bygone source of 'power' or else so many round cairns and long/round barrows would not have been retained, and still survive, within hillforts. However once that reverence had gone, great source of building stone! And the nearer a site was to later habitation, the more chance of complete removal.

The thing that bugs me, however, is the hollowing out of upland cairns where it would have been just as easy - if not easier - to collect surface rock straight from the ground lower down the hill/mountain. A good example of this is at the Carnau'r Garreg Las I visited a couple of weeks back. Rock litters the mountainside, yet both cairns are substantially defaced internally. The 'storm shelter' theory is also tenuous here since the cairns lie well off the main east/west path traversing Y Mynydd Du, with some (albeit isolated) farms less than an easy hours descent to the NW? Such mutilation would have required a great deal of effort.... for what? Treasure hunting/unrecorded excavation would appear the most logical explanation.... people will be willing to go to lengths if there is the chance of substantial reward. Or could some ritualistic requirement have provided the necessary motive for destruction... sort of akin to incomers to an area saying 'your justification for ownership is your ancestors reside upon the hill.... well, they don't any more since we've got rid of them... we're in charge now'.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
Feb 11, 2012, 12:59
GLADMAN wrote:
tiompan wrote:
There is quite a difference between the mounds of long barrows , passage tombs etc and the cairns that surrounded portal tombs .
The former dwarf the latter have kerb stones and are not composed of stones to anything like the same extent . It is this differece that could explain why some cairns were removed i.e. a useful source of stone .Furthermore none have been shown to cover the capstone suggesting the possibility that not only stabilising the orthostats the purpose may have also been to help the raise the capstone .


There is also the point of the aesthetic form and sheer substantial nature of many surviving capstones. I'm no structural engineer, but I've often been struck by just how impressive they are in relation to a role of merely roofing over a chamber, suggesting that surely there must have been some requirement towards display. Why go to all that trouble then pile rock or earth over the top? I understand this is looking at it from a 21st century viewpoint, and the fact that the gods would know it was impressive regardless might have been enough, but I would have thought human vanity - ours is better than theirs - would have played a part.

Agree with the source of stone point.... clearly Iron Age culture generally respected/feared cairns as representing a bygone source of 'power' or else so many round cairns and long/round barrows would not have been retained, and still survive, within hillforts. However once that reverence had gone, great source of building stone! And the nearer a site was to later habitation, the more chance of complete removal.

The thing that bugs me, however, is the hollowing out of upland cairns where it would have been just as easy - if not easier - to collect surface rock straight from the ground lower down the hill/mountain. A good example of this is at the Carnau'r Garreg Las I visited a couple of weeks back. Rock litters the mountainside, yet both cairns are substantially defaced internally. The 'storm shelter' theory is also tenuous here since the cairns lie well off the main east/west path traversing Y Mynydd Du, with some (albeit isolated) farms less than an easy hours descent to the NW? Such mutilation would have required a great deal of effort.... for what? Treasure hunting/unrecorded excavation would appear the most logical explanation.... people will be willing to go to lengths if there is the chance of substantial reward. Or could some ritualistic requirement have provided the necessary motive for destruction... sort of akin to incomers to an area saying 'your justification for ownership is your ancestors reside upon the hill.... well, they don't any more since we've got rid of them... we're in charge now'.


Same applies to passage grave art , corbelling , internal architecture etc all lost to view , the punters were probably not the priority .
In the case of a cairn , treasure hunting has to be an option ,although throwing rocks down a hillside must have been as common a past-time then as today . Yep shelters are generally for summits and only for sitting out the shower /blizzard ,real shelters are much lower and not on a shoulder .
Defacement / destruction/iconoclasm in prehistory is common enough le Petit chaussure ,Val de Aosta , Mount Pleasant , possibly the some of the bluestone stumps at Stonehenge from the Beaker transition and much else that would have just gone unnoticed .
rockhopper
275 posts

Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
Feb 11, 2012, 13:06
Excellent point. The more of these cairns I come across, the more convinced I am that they were initially constructed with dished interiors. This would make them functional in some way, rather than merely marking a particular spot. I'm pretty sure at this stage that the cairns were used for something, sky burial being one, but by no means the only one, of many possibilities
rockhopper
275 posts

Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
Feb 11, 2012, 13:28
Something else occurs to me that reinforces the opinion that none of the Irish portals were covered. Not one has ever been found in recent times beneath a mound, or even partially covered. It seems unlikely that all of 174 documented examples have had their original mounds removed by someone. If they were it had to be a someone, as rain would not do it.
Distribution. The majority above a line running from Mayo to Dublin, with 10 out of 15 in Galway and Mayo being on the coast. A cluster in a line running from Dublin to Waterford, and only 2 s.w of a line running Waterford/Limerick.
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited Feb 11, 2012, 14:30
Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
Feb 11, 2012, 14:28
tiompan wrote:

TJJ ,the distribution on the east side of the Irish sea is Cornwall and the western extremities of Wales .In Ireland it is the area west of the Welsh monuments (Wicklow to Wexford )but also much of the north ( Aughnacliffe is on the southern edge of this distribution ) plus some in the west central area centred on Galway .


Thanks Tiompan, I'll be travelling to Glengariff from Wexford so will do a bit of research on where the Wexford portal tombs are .. just been reading up on Ballybrittas, although the one photograph here does not look promising.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
Feb 11, 2012, 14:41
tjj wrote:
tiompan wrote:

TJJ ,the distribution on the east side of the Irish sea is Cornwall and the western extremities of Wales .In Ireland it is the area west of the Welsh monuments (Wicklow to Wexford )but also much of the north ( Aughnacliffe is on the southern edge of this distribution ) plus some in the west central area centred on Galway .


Thanks Tiompan, I'll be travelling to Glengariff from Wexford so will do a bit of research on where the Wexford portal tombs are .. just been reading up on Ballybrittas, although the one photograph here does not look promising.

Scroll down .

http://oconnortom.com/megalithic-ireland/co-wexford/
moss
moss
2897 posts

Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
Feb 11, 2012, 14:43
Slightly off track and only a thought......


Always been fascinated by this group of tombs near Pendine, (although never been there) and the Pembrokeshire coastal path, Geo.Nash photos show something very similar to Rockhoppers video, though out of the 4/5 tombs only one capstone remains. Cromlechs 'hidden' amongst the stones?


http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/304168/images/MORFA+BYCHAN+CHAMBERED+CAIRNS/

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=15126



Well having explored parts of Pembrokeshire for years and pottered round the cromlechs, West Wales close proximity to Ireland there must be similarities regarding the chambered neolithic cromlechs and whether or not they were covered. It seems to me, that quite a few were definitely not covered because of the absence of soil. On St.David's Head you are almost on bare rock, soil only accumulating in the valley below. The three tombs below are just sitting on rock....

Also Carn Wnda, and Garn Wen (sub megalithics) comes to mind as well, as having no covering, they are quite crude inasfar as design goes.


http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/3555/carn_llidi_tombs.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/1595/coetan_arthur.html
rockhopper
275 posts

Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
Feb 11, 2012, 16:51
Thanks a mill! That's just the kind of thing we have over here. Identical. There's no doubt about it. Tremendous stuff. Has anyone else any more?
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
Feb 11, 2012, 18:24
rockhopper wrote:
Thanks a mill! That's just the kind of thing we have over here. Identical. There's no doubt about it. Tremendous stuff. Has anyone else any more?


I saw nothing on the video of the Comeragh moraine or what I can remember of the the CD that is anything like "identical " to Carn Llidi ,Coetan Arthur or Morfa Bychan .
rockhopper
275 posts

Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.
Feb 11, 2012, 19:14
Sweetcheat, my good man, you are absolutely priceless. Have just spent the last couple of hours going through your old blogs and the very excellent photo's therein. There can be no doubt that what I've seen is identical to what is over here.
Kenidjack Castle 14/6/11, photo 6. Seems to show identical scree alteration. Can't see the detail, but lots of same here.
Yellowmead s.e cairn. 7/8/10.Very similar indeed.
Cwm Ian cairn. 17/7/10. Identical to many in the Comeraghs.
Enclosure east of Down Tor 12/7/10. Identical angling of stones, with the longest tapers pointing skywards.
Round cairn east of Down Tor 12/7/10. Identical to accumulations of stone here.
Drizzlecomb. 12/7/10. Images 1 and 2. Identical
Tregiffian Vean 22/7/10. Image 4 of 4. Blocked chamber. Numerous examples in the Comeraghs. Described by local archaeo's as "field clearance" (and Popeye is the first lord sea admiral...)
Chun Castle. 15/6/10. Images 1 and 2. Swathes of rocks absolutely identical, with longest tapers pointing upwards.
Now if we are all agreed that these are not natural rock formations, then we have a whole new ball game. There is now no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that what happened along western Britain and what was going on in South east Ireland was one and the same thing. Hope that answers your last post Timpers old boy!
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