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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Eire » UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND. |
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Feb 09, 2012, 12:02
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rockhopper wrote: Its an idea, thats all, . I agree .
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tjj 3606 posts |
Feb 09, 2012, 19:03
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I've just watched your You Tube video all the way through - didn't want to watch it until I had time to see it all. A wonderful, other worldly landscape which immediately made me think of the sarsen drift valley near Avebury, although the stones very much smaller. I understand Comeragh is glaciated as well. I agree many of the stone piles look deliberate (especially the mound around seven minutes into the video) and could well be burials. The people burying their dead would not have had to dig too deep as ample supply of stones to pile on a shallow grave. The other possible explanation may be that the stones were harvested for walls, houses (whatever) and certain stones discarded into piles as not suitable - just a thought. Interesting - thank you (even though you were a little prickly at times). I wish you well in pursuing some formal excavations in the not too distant future.
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thesweetcheat 6216 posts |
Feb 09, 2012, 20:14
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rockhopper wrote: Many of the large stone cairns in south east Ireland have dished interiors. They also have small ante-chambers, and incorporate pits, for want of a better description. These have been described as "wind shelters" in the past, despite the fact that their shelter potential is in most cases zero. Hello Rockhopper, I've enjoyed this thread and some of the ideas you've mentioned are certainly worthy of a lot of consideration (especially the possibilities of "scree alteration" that you came into TMA with). I'm not an expert and I've never been to Ireland, so not qualified or experienced to know whether things there are similar to the sorts of stuff you see on the uplands in E&W. That said, I must admit that the quote above, about the causes of "dished interiors", does cause me some doubts. Although perfectly possible the theory does seem to discount other equally (or possibly more) plausible reasons for why a lot of cairns have dished centres. There are plenty of written accounts of barrows being dug into in the 17th/18th/19th centuries, either to look for treasure or (in later periods) to investigate using the only means available at the time, i.e. by digging into them. I would think that the majority of dished cairns I've seen have that shape due to recent-ish disturbance. In addition, the same is true of earthen round barrows (often lowland), not just (upland) cairns. The scooped "doughnut" shape we've all seen is (I think) usually the result of digging. Ironically, the recent TMA thread about a certain Cheshire barrow that provided us with such an enlightened contribution the other day is such an example. Going forwards in time, I note your brisk dismissal of the "wind shelter" cause for barrows to have hollowed-out interiors. Sadly this is something that still goes on today and that is precisely how many of these upland cairns have been treated in the last 100 years. Two specific examples for you: Western Beacon on Dartmoor. A group of volunteers (including TMA-er Lubin) spent a lot of time dismantling wind shelters to restore the cairns there to their previous shape. Sadly some of them have already been "re-shelterised" since. This provides an example of it happening that has been documented very recently. Bowscale Fell in the Northern Lake District. This mountain has a very substantial stone-built "wind shelter" on top of it. It looks very like a BA cairn that's been hollowed, but it isn't. The 25" OS maps from the late 19th century show a trig pillar there but no cairn (which they would have shown if it was there). It's a wind shelter built during the 20th century purely to provide a mountain top shelter (and I must admit it is effective to block the prevailing wind, having sat in it for a cupppa on a very windy, rainy and cold October day last year). Neither of these causes of "dished interiors" disproves your theory. But both are demonstrable and documented as alternative causes in E&W and I think if SE Ireland is comparable, your theory will probably need to accommodate that. Cheers, thesweetcheat
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rockhopper 275 posts |
Feb 09, 2012, 22:45
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Thank you, that is indeed food for thought. I would certainly agree that many of the stone cairns I have encountered have been vandalised, dug into, and generally disturbed. There are two however I have come across which appear to be in their original condition. One is below Crohan west in the Knockmealdowns, and the other on Deelish mountain in the Comeraghs. If I may explain. The two mentioned above are not random piles of stones, but appear to be carefully constructed. Both have dished interiors, but both have distinct features within them. The one on Deelish is the most interesting, with a crescent shaped "entrance". Inside the dished interior are are two "ante chambers", that is to say, two seperate compartments to the cairn. Whilst some stones have fallen, or have been disturbed by livestock or walkers, the essential features of the cairn remain intact. Others, notably the one on top of Temple hill in the Galty mountains has been seriously brutalised in the not so distant past. Others have been damaged to a lesser extent, but seem to have similar distinct "compartments". What they represent can only be speculative. My reasons for doubting the wind shelter theory is this. In all the years spent tramping these mountains, I tend not to go up when the weather is bad, bordering on the dangerous. This is only from personal experience, but when I do see bad weather coming in, I get the hell out of there. At no stage have I considered building a shelter, when in a quarter of the time I could be back in front of the fire at home. Its my belief that the "wind shelters" had some other function, because most of those I've encountered would do little to promote a persons health or well being.
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rockhopper 275 posts |
Feb 09, 2012, 23:04
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I profusely apologise for any prickliness, and to the recipients of same. It was ungentlemanly conduct for which there is no excuse. As for comparing myself to gallileo, it was the situation, not the man that was alluded to.(not your comment) Although there are ancient denuded walls in the area, they dont appear in this locality. As for houses, its not a place anyone would benefit from living in, unless they favoured hardship. I really dont know what the stone piles represent. Not far away, in a location I'm reluctant to disclose, are two similar mounds covered in quartz chips. What lies beneath is anyones guess, but that is the responsibility of others. Thank you for taking the time to look at the video clip. All responses are very gratefully received.
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bawn79 864 posts |
Feb 10, 2012, 12:28
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Rockhopper, This is probably a silly question, have you looked at the old OS maps on OSI for the area? Just to get an idea of what population / buildings there may have been pre-famine? http://maps.osi.ie/publicviewer/#V1,591271,743300,0,10 If you click into this and then the historic 6" you will find the maps for the area. Just an idea and ive found everything mentioned interesting but again im not really qualified to comment on the shapes etc of the rock-piles. I did find it amazing what the pre-famine settlement patterns were like in ireland, I wonder whether there may have been some more settlement up around this area at that time than now? Again just something to rule out.
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rockhopper 275 posts |
Feb 10, 2012, 14:42
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There's nothing marked on the 1847 maps except two nearby trackways which are still evident. The rockfield is in a very exposed location at around 1100ft asl. Theres no sign of habitation such as old foundation marks, either rectangular or circular, no signs of collapse, which can be found at the medeival site at Kilbrien upper(Waterford inventory). Other rockfields in the Knockmealdowns are even more distinct, with circular and rectangular mounds surrounded by kerbing. Likewise here, there's no sign of walls or habitation. All the rockfields are located in extremely marginal areas where I would imagine life would be very hard indeed. I've also ruled out the possibilty of cilleens, although there is a slight similarity. The cilleens I've seen to date are much simpler, inasmuch as they use one or two marker stones at most. Hope that helps.
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Feb 10, 2012, 15:14
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rockhopper wrote: the Carrigaruppera-H1 alignment in Coumaraglin on the equinoxes, one of the most spectacular visual alignments in this country. Any data or pics for this please ?
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tjj 3606 posts |
Feb 10, 2012, 18:02
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rockhopper wrote: Although there are ancient denuded walls in the area, they dont appear in this locality. As for houses, its not a place anyone would benefit from living in, unless they favoured hardship. I was thinking more that stones may have been collected from the area and transported elsewhere to be used as building materials - like a form of open cast quarrying.
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rockhopper 275 posts |
Feb 10, 2012, 19:33
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Don't know if its available on line, but report in Deices No 67, 2007, journal of the waterford archaeological and historical society. Do have photos, will get onto Mr Power to see if he can e mail them to you. That is G from D is'nt it? If you cant find it online get back to me.
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