jimit
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Re: Stone shifting 5
Sep 17, 2003, 19:29
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F*****G HELL!! That would be impressive! Mind you, perhaps that is why the uprights and lintels have matching posts and sockets to stop the lintel slipping off during the lift.
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Wotan
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Re: think neolithic
Sep 17, 2003, 21:06
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perhaps thats what he did - remember we're really giving the idea loads of thought, but we're at the other end of the evolutionary scale and we've seen so many commonplace feats of engineering that we can conceive of immensley technical practicalities easily. Your average Stone age chappy would be at the bleeding edge of simple mechanics in his day, he wouldnt be on the shoulders of giants as we are, but faced with the practicality of inventing engineering from scratch! Look at a kid building stuff with Lego, they dont understand how to build a wall with a flemish bond so it doesnt topple, they take the shortest route to the biggest model - surely S.A.M would do the same (at least with the early monuments) ? Maybe we cant see the monument for the megaliths?
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Wotan
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Re: think neolithic II
Sep 17, 2003, 21:13
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put away your slide rules, calculators, pcs etc. Go out into the fresh air, look at that block of stone. Kick it, embrace it, switch off that fine-tuned analysis engine thats busily working out angles and forces and think how the hell do I lift this up?! Its in my way, I need to lift it and with sheer animal might and strength, shove it, handle it and get back to basics - back to real problems that cant be addressed by power tools or JCBs or 500mhz computers. Its just you and 10 tons of granite under the stars and one of you is going to win...
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Steve Gray
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Re: think neolithic II
Sep 17, 2003, 21:53
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And the answer you come up with...
"No way, Jose" (well in Neolithic Spain, perhaps)
;o)
The sarsen circle has uprights that support two lintels each. The whole circle could not possibly be raised in one go, therefore the lintels were put on after the uprigths were erected. There's no reason to suppose that the trilithons were any different.
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Steve Gray
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Re: Stone shifting 5
Sep 17, 2003, 22:00
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A previous message of mine seems to have not made it. In it I said:
I thought you were suggesting raising the uprights to 90 deg and then raising the lintel on a crib. Looking back I reaslise that you said "erect the whole bloody trilithon to 90 degrees in one go, lintel included"
I've had two drinks already. How many do I have to have before it starts to seem like a good idea?
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nigelswift
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All up in the air again...
Sep 17, 2003, 22:12
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I wrote this because I found some evidence that seemed to cast doubt on Vertical Tipping from a Tower. But it also casts doubt on the latest “Whole Lift” thoughts. It’s obviously a crucial matter so I’d prefer it if everyone checked it out and ideally we get some expert advice.
First (speculation rather than evidence):
The trilithon uprights and the sarsen circle uprights vary in length by several feet, yet all are buried more or less deeply so that their tops are all very level with each other. I’m wondering if this suggests a rope technique where you could let the stone down and repeat the process after doing fine packing adjustments to get it just right, rather than a one-shot technique off a tower. (The differing lengths would pretty much preclude Whole Lift as well).
Second, more importantly.
Apart from the mention on Steve’s plans, I’ve found 2 more references to a “ramp fill” at Stone 56 here:
http://robin.eng-h.gov.uk/stoneh/listsar.htm
I’m not sure we can reconcile a log tower with that. It suggests a shallow insertion, not a vertical drop. If we can’t get round that then we have to build a ramp (of chalk rubble, they imply).
However, I think that would be nothing but good news for Gordon and the project:
First, we can go uphill steeper than the Beeb. I assume therefore our ramp would be much smaller than whatever sized one they used.
Second, this fits with the repeated question – Where did the ramp material go? In our case, there would be a lot less of it.
Third, it saves us time and trouble. Just as we have a pre-dug hole, so we have a pre-dumped ramp.
Fourth, stone rowing becomes the star of the show – we row up the ramp and then row horizontally onto a (low) collapsible ramp. We could actually “arrive” from Avebury and row the stone straight into position and collapse it into the hole, before pulling it up. In how long, if we were well organized? Pretty impressive TV!
Fifth, in so doing we could still show off Gordon’s collapsible tower method of tipping the stone, which may be superion to the BBC’s counterbalancing stone.
Sixth, we are spared levering up the heavy stone but can still demonstrate it on the lintel.
Seventh, stone rowing could have a second starring role – moving the lintel across off it’s tower.
We could present the whole thing in terms of Stone Rowing being not only the possible solution to Moving the Megaliths but also being the centrepiece to Raising the Megaliths.
As I say though, I’d like an expert to tell us current thinking on whether ramps are really evidence based before we make a final decision.
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GordonP
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Re: Do we need ropes?
Sep 17, 2003, 22:35
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Steve you are making me work in a way that is alien to my normal trial and effort approach, still I'll have a go.
Problem. We cannot move the fulcrum point. Solution. Leave it where it is.
Lever the stone up as far as possible, then insert packing logs between the stone (stone side) and the fulcrum. This will bring the contact point of the levers (now acting against the packing) back towards the fulcrum. Continue and repeat as necessary.
The distance to be covered cannot be much more than 3 or 4 feet.
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GordonP
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Re: All up in the air again...
Sep 17, 2003, 22:49
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Ajusting the depth of the hole after the stone has been insterted sounds impossible in practical terms.
Second point, did the experts find evidence of ramps because that is what they expected to find? They won't like that inferance but they are only human after all.
Anyway I'll leave such questions to you Nigel and stick to finding practical solutions.
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nigelswift
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Re: All up in the air again...
Sep 17, 2003, 23:00
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Perfectly fair question. They found something and interpreted it as a ramp.
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Steve Gray
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Re: Do we need ropes?
Sep 17, 2003, 23:16
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Sorry, Gordon, if you'd like time to build a model that's OK. However, calculation shows that the distance moved by the top of a 32 foot stone from 70 to 90 deg is just under 11 feet. That's one hell of a lot of packing. Nice try though!
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