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Jesus I despise Brexit.
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Amil04
447 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Mar 13, 2019, 20:27
; ))
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Mar 13, 2019, 20:35
Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Mar 13, 2019, 20:34
Captain Starlet wrote:
Well, that was fun, will wait to see what happens tomorrow. I can't see a no-deal being accepted but then again I never thought leave would win either! I'd say my money's on revoke A50 or people's vote, but bit short of cash at the moment due to losing my job because of brexit!


You have my sympathy. My income is unlikely to be directly affected by Brexit (aside from whatever collective hit the country takes) but two people I know - including one very close friend - have already lost their jobs because of this disaster. And they don't even live in the UK!

The votes today have been intriguing. The rejection of "No Deal" was surprisingly close, but a rejection it was. And we've already had a rejection of literally the only deal the EU will countenance.

You'd imagine that - by default - that amounts to a rejection of brexit entirely. No such luck unfortunately; but if May can't secure an extension it's hard to see how she can do anything other than revoke Article 50 given today's vote. There's no longer time for another referendum or an election.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1095 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Mar 13, 2019, 20:40
I feel their pain, over 1000 of us lost our jobs in 2016 as a direct result of the referendum. We're part of the group that people don't like to talk about as we don't fit in to a good political narrative.

I'm not sure what would be accomplished with an extension without a further referendum. I really can't see any other way out of this mess. The whole backstop situation isn't going to change and can't change the fact that at the end of the day the best deal the uk is going to get is remaining.
PMM
PMM
3155 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Mar 13, 2019, 20:48
The weasel in the words is that today's vote isn't legally binding I suppose.

Somehow Hardline Leavers and Remainers have ended up looking for the same thing: No extension.

Leavers so that we get a no deal Brexit by default, Remainers so that we have to hit the big red STOP button.
giNgko_C
giNgko_C
1639 posts

Edited Mar 13, 2019, 21:00
Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Mar 13, 2019, 20:49
PS: this was the exact second UKIP was formed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idg8TNknvDU

Cx

stand there doing nothing for twenty three years then suddenly gain relevence - what a bunch of cock
nigelswift
8067 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Mar 14, 2019, 08:32
C'mon, answer the kitten conundrum:

3 years ago the public voted 52-48 to kill 'em all (and make the poor poorer to boot) 2 weeks from now.
Do you ask them to re-run the vote before you do it?
Or not?
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Edited Mar 14, 2019, 11:45
Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Mar 14, 2019, 11:25
The 'kitten' analogy is a good one. It highlights the absurdity of the situation. The obvious retort is "don't be stupid, people would never vote for that".

Which makes me think, "well they voted to dramatically increase the risk of sectarian violence in Ireland... the kitten thing is more obviously absurd of course, but is really that much more insane?"

It feels to me; three years on now that everyone knows a lot more about the downsides of brexit; it's surely a big enough decision to at least warrant double-checking. No?

That said -- and I guess this isn't a massively popular thing to say -- I'd rather the UK government just unilaterally cancelled the whole thing. I find the current fetishisation of "the will of the people" troubling. It's not sacrosanct and nor should it be. History is full of great evil done under the name of "the will of the people".

Which is not the same thing as saying "the will of the people" (whatever that is!) is irrelevant. It can't be ignored. But nor is it Divine Will. And when, collectively, we get a decision wrong, there's no moral obligation to abide by that decision. Especially if it's clearly destructive.

To side-step the absurdity of the kitten analogy, if 52% of a country votes to intern Muslim immigrants without trial, that does not make it a morally justifiable action. In fact, I would argue in that situation that the will of the people has become deeply malign and the moral choice in that situation is to oppose the will of the people.

So while people may never vote for kitten eradication, anyone feel confident that for example, the current Hungarian government given the political situation there, couldn't run a referendum campaign that would have such an outcome? Do people really think a nation has some kind of obligation to set up internment camps just because 52% of the people can be whipped into enough of a frenzy to vote for it on some random day?

Ironically Hungary couldn't do something like that as it is currently constrained by the European Union and its pesky Court of Justice and Human Rights legislation. But that's a whole other issue.

In my ideal scenario, there would be no new referendum. Instead Theresa May would simply declare brexit a clear danger to the interests of the United Kingdom and its neighbours. She would publicly acknowledge that a huge number of those who want to leave are misinformed on the issue, while another significant cohort are simply xenophobes. She would make it clear that the UK is a decent, modern nation and does not make major political changes based on misinformation, bigotry, and ignorance.

Therefore, she would announce (to the outrage of the gathered tabloid throng) that she had already sent legal notification to the EU rescinding Article 50. She would strongly urge the nation to engage in a serious, informed discussion about EU membership; the benefits and drawbacks; without the ticking clock of Article 50 making the whole situation hysterical. The debate should take place as much as possible outside the popular press and social media; there must be genuine attempts to educate rather than manipulate. The conversation should begin after the General Election (which she would call for the same day as the European election in a couple of months - giving the tories time to elect a new leader).

And the conversation should end in several years; not with a referendum, but with another General Election in which the parties set out their policy for European membership in their manifestos and would then enact those policies in the following parliament like any other major national decision.

In the meantime, while the UK works out what the hell it wants, the rest of Europe can try and salvage something from this mess... a sense of greater unity perhaps; a cautionary example of the dangerous road that populism can lead us down... while turning attention to arguably more important issues (such as Climate Change, the breakdown in global power-structures, and internal tensions within the EU).
nigelswift
8067 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Mar 14, 2019, 11:51
"if 52% of a country votes to intern Muslim immigrants without trial, that does not make it a morally justifiable action".
Exactly, which is why we have representational democracy not direct democracy, with delegates who are a step more informed than Alf Garnett or Bertie Wooster. 500 out of 650 MPs voted Remain, not because they represented the 52% but because they thought about it rather more deeply. They are what rampant Brexiteers call "the elite" and we need them else we'd nuke the next country who annoyed us. In that sense they are profoundly undemocratic. Good.

" three years on now that everyone knows a lot more about the downsides of brexit; it's surely a big enough decision to at least warrant double-checking."
Definitely. They change, that's why we have elections. But not second referendums it seems. And the difference is?
I think the biggest mistake MPs make, and not just Brexit ones, is to cling to a 3 year old marginal instruction that they know is out of date and rendered invalid by events. "Democracy" is being clung to when logic dictates it shouldn't be.

"That said -- and I guess this isn't a massively popular thing to say -- I'd rather the UK government just unilaterally cancelled the whole thing."
Yep! And yes to so much more you said.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1095 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Mar 14, 2019, 18:43
After a quick recap today:

We're fucked!

For those of us who lost our jobs and careers in 2016, this is basically saying we've no future here and go elsewhere, or do lesser qualified jobs, which isn't a realistic option. On a personal level, the only thing I can actually think of doing is looking to relocate and find work, however this becomes even more problematic due to the fact that thousands of others will be planning the same thing, thus making regaining a career a complete pain in the arse!
grufty jim
grufty jim
1978 posts

Re: Jesus I despise Brexit.
Mar 14, 2019, 18:59
Captain Starlet wrote:
After a quick recap today:

We're fucked!

For those of us who lost our jobs and careers in 2016, this is basically saying we've no future here and go elsewhere, or do lesser qualified jobs, which isn't a realistic option. On a personal level, the only thing I can actually think of doing is looking to relocate and find work, however this becomes even more problematic due to the fact that thousands of others will be planning the same thing, thus making regaining a career a complete pain in the arse!


It's not just that "thousands of others" thing... up until Brexit you have the right to settle and find work in any one of 27 other countries which - collectively - make up the world's largest economy. Losing that right is a terrible price to pay for the foolishness of a narrow majority of your fellow countrymen and women.

It's sad; most who voted Leave won't be personally affected by the loss of Freedom of Movement. Yet they've decided to strip that right from those who would use it, all in the name of some vague, nebulous idea of sovereignty that they can never coherently explain.

My own friend is looking at Australia, but he doesn't want to uproot his family. Even if brexit is cancelled, his contract is gone now and he's got a three month window to find something else before the offer in Australia disappears. And while he knows he's fortunate to still have that option (which is a good one), it's a hell of a long way from what he had planned. And for what? So a bunch of eejits next door can have blue passports.
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