nigelswift
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Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 27, 2019, 12:39
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well, his "very clear policy" statement this morning is: "There has to be an agreement with the EU, and there then has to be a public vote" which yet again means absolutely nothing.
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spencer
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Edited May 27, 2019, 13:38
Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 27, 2019, 13:38
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I very rarely watch QT these days but did a bit of the one from Derby... sickening, leaver packed.
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grufty jim
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Edited May 27, 2019, 19:44
Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 27, 2019, 19:44
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nigelswift wrote: Exactly, Remain parties clearly won (boo to them for not having a common standard) yet the Beebs lead headline is "Clear win for Brexit Party".
Some talk of Labour shifting now though ....
I'm about as anti-brexit as it gets, but I've seen this "Remain (parties) won" thing on social media today and it's just not true.
Based on this BBC-sourced chart that was going round on twitter under the "REMAIN WON!!!" banner...
Clearly anti-brexit parties (Green, Lib Dem, Plaid, SNP, Change UK) got 40.4%
The Brexit Party got 34.9%
The tories (who are clearly a pro-brexit party) got 9.1%.
That means it was 44% Vs 40.4% in favour of Brexit.
And you simply cannot assume Labour's 14.1% was an anti-brexit vote (much as I wish we could). There's just no way of knowing how many of those Labour voters would turn out for "remain" in another referendum. I don't think Labour's equivocation is doing anyone any good at all, but that's where they are, and counting a Labour vote as a Remain vote isn't justifiable right now (IMO).
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nigelswift
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Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 27, 2019, 20:47
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I agree, but of course, some Tories and many Labour supporters are potential Remainers and if only the forces of Remain were more unified some more of them would be attracted across.
That's issue One, and the other is that the Man of Principle ought to decide to do what's right else we're screwed.
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grufty jim
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Edited May 27, 2019, 22:11
Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 27, 2019, 22:11
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nigelswift wrote: I agree, but of course, some Tories and many Labour supporters are potential Remainers and if only the forces of Remain were more unified some more of them would be attracted across.
That's issue One, and the other is that the Man of Principle ought to decide to do what's right else we're screwed.
All of that's true. Some tories and many Labour supporters are remainers.
But equally, almost all tories and some Labour supporters are leavers. Certainly there'd be a small, but not insignificant section of the Labour vote that would abstain in another referendum. And Corbyn's equivocation has presumably kept _some_ active Leavers on side. I'm thinking of northern industrial towns that voted heavily brexit -- a lot of them were traditional Labour voters and not all of them would have switched to Farage in an election, but will very likely vote Leave again in a referendum.
Basically, the EU vote should not and cannot be taken as a proxy referendum. And if it is to be viewed that way; I'm not at all sure it's as positive for Remain as it's being painted.
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PMM
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Edited May 27, 2019, 22:43
Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 27, 2019, 22:22
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I saw a metaphor:
A hundred people on a bus narrowly vote (52-48)to go for a picnic. Throughout the journey to the picnic destination, some of the people that would have preferred to go to the pub instead, grumbled but most of them acquiesced.
When they get to the field, they found there is a bull in it. It's pissing down. There are clouds of mosquitoes. There is cowshit in abundance.
That's the mataphor. Implication being that the same coachload would now make a different decision. Pub ahoy!
Except the coachload, given something like another vote, has voiced more or less the same opinion. No matter that the loud mouthed prick with the loud tie has been annoying you with his "picnic means picnic" pronouncements, or the guy on the opposite side of the bus, with his vehement argmuments of the benefits of going to the Red Lion insatead have had their say. They've again collectively insisted on dragging eveyone along to their shit picnic. And the driver (how the fuck did they pass their driving test?) has little choice but to take them,
Yay for democracy.
Nobody can honestly claim a mandate from yesterday's results. Plenty of people will claim a dishonest one.
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nigelswift
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Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 07:56
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Yes, a democracy but a representative one. MPs are there to exercise their judgment which may not equate with their constituents. The bugger of this is that so many of them are pitching to be re-elected by voting against their better judgment.manyLabour members by voting Brexitand most Tories by contemplating hard Brexit, which they KNOW is wrong.
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Locodogz
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Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 10:28
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Yeah - I saw that - and not one of them under the age of about 60 IIRC?
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Locodogz
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Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 10:35
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In some respect Nigel I think this may be good news for remainers
So 12% (32% of the 37% who turned out) have come out for the full swivel eyed WTO exit. But its being proclaimed as a 'victory' which makes any (saner, and I use that word guardedly) version of Brexit even more politically toxic.
Provided parliament refuses a no-deal Brexit (the one thing they've looked reasonably resolute on to date) - surely makes a second referendum inevitable?
Leave has hit 'peak leave' - they're all out (after all its been their chance of a lifetime), the waters of the 'non voting apathetic' would surely be more remain leaning and (potentially) a little more galvanized next time round?
Or is that just wishful thinking....?!?!?
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nigelswift
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Re: The Beeb up to its tricks again
May 28, 2019, 10:57
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I hope it's true too, but a lot of swivel eyes said they wouldn't vote this timeas a "protest" which is a measure of how stupid many are, and analysis shows Remainers had a higher propensity to vote. All we need is a repeat of those two phenomena in a People's Vote and we'd be home and dry!
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