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Tidying up offerings
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Resonox
604 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 19:37
revnox wrote:
Resonox wrote:
I think it is widely accepted that "The Harvest Festival", although adopted by christianity, is in fact a throwback to an older tradition...so quite possibly it is the oldest"ongoing" tradition.


Sorry to contradict however I think we can consider innumerable 'ongoing' traditions regarding sacrifice and the seasons, death and rebirth etc to be as old if not older!
So your remark as to it being the oldest is patently untrue at worst and subjectively selective at best.


Well I'll bow to your obvious knowledge in these matters, but I've always thought that the origins of Harvest Festival were derived from a seasonal sacrifice...glad to be proven wrong.
However,,did you intend to be so rude in your reply? It undermines your previous claims to champion freedom of expression. Are they too selective or untrue?...I make an error(in your view) and you insinuate I'm committing the crime of the century by telling deliberate falsehoods(again in your view)......I'd just like to draw your attention to the fact I did in my post say "possibly it is the oldest tradition".
However,with drawing a line under all that I'd be grateful, from a learning point of view, to hear which traditions in this country are ongoing and old, older and oldest...cheers in advance
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6213 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 19:41
gjrk wrote:
thesweetcheat wrote:
gjrk wrote:
Not that I suggest a TMA member should head off on a killing spree.


Although it may come to that when pottery-cow-rage sets in.

:-)


You'll do it and subsequently, overcome by remorse, become a lifelong potter of cows - shunned by the double-decker-bus driving, central-heating set. It's a lonely road without a two-storey vehicle (or a nice hot radiator). Are you prepared for that?

It's late.

Too late now.


That's a bleak future you've mapped for me there my friend.

Perhaps I should restrain my murderous urges ... at least for now.

;-)
megadread
1202 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 20:03
tiompan wrote:
megadread wrote:


Close to Barbrook 1 stone circle is a reconstructed cairn, every time i go there i find more and more little bits of quartz and to be honest i don't mind that as they're usually hidden under the stones,


Possibly a bit anoraky, but quartz is often viewed as an important component of a site , being intentionally deposited in many cases .If the there hasn't been a record or excavation this might skew results .


It has been excavated, also the lower half of the cairn is quite well "sealed" with the stones having well packed soil between them and quite a lot of grass growth, the "offerings" are placed amongst the loose stones that make up the top third of the structure. : )
revnox
92 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 20:13
Resonox wrote:
revnox wrote:
Resonox wrote:
I think it is widely accepted that "The Harvest Festival", although adopted by christianity, is in fact a throwback to an older tradition...so quite possibly it is the oldest"ongoing" tradition.


Sorry to contradict however I think we can consider innumerable 'ongoing' traditions regarding sacrifice and the seasons, death and rebirth etc to be as old if not older!
So your remark as to it being the oldest is patently untrue at worst and subjectively selective at best.


Well I'll bow to your obvious knowledge in these matters, but I've always thought that the origins of Harvest Festival were derived from a seasonal sacrifice...glad to be proven wrong.
However,,did you intend to be so rude in your reply? It undermines your previous claims to champion freedom of expression. Are they too selective or untrue?...I make an error(in your view) and you insinuate I'm committing the crime of the century by telling deliberate falsehoods(again in your view)......I'd just like to draw your attention to the fact I did in my post say "possibly it is the oldest tradition".
However,with drawing a line under all that I'd be grateful, from a learning point of view, to hear which traditions in this country are ongoing and old, older and oldest...cheers in advance


I did not intend to be rude nor was I, however if you feel slighted I apologise.
However no one has suggested nor implied that any crime and definitely not one of "the century" has been committed! Nor have I stated that your falsehood was deliberate.
However drawing a line under all that...there are (as I stated before) a large number of ongoing traditions (however reinterpreted and transformed as the harvest festival was and is) such as death and birth rites, other rites associated with the seasons.......I am sure every reader will be conversant with such obvious parallels and their historic provenance in all cultures.
your welcome in advance.
Resonox
604 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 02, 2010, 05:28
revnox wrote:

However drawing a line under all that...there are (as I stated before) a large number of ongoing traditions (however reinterpreted and transformed as the harvest festival was and is) such as death and birth rites, other rites associated with the seasons.......I am sure every reader will be conversant with such obvious parallels and their historic provenance in all cultures.

I'm not conversant with any and would really appreciate which ones are meant....because it would only be guesswork on my behalf.
We are talking about this country though...and I think, through reading your reply(feel free to correct me though)..that you are agreeing with me that the harvest festival might indeed be one of the oldest ongoing traditions, like I say..the others which spring to(my) mind would only be speculation.You could always start a new thread listing "The Oldest Ongoing UK Traditions"....I can think of 5 possibles...but it'd be interesting to see your list first so I can compare and contrast...and also to see what other readers think are suitable candidates for inclusion
Littlestone
Littlestone
5386 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 02, 2010, 07:52
You could always start a new thread listing "The Oldest Ongoing UK Traditions"...


Excellent idea! And within the TMA remit I should think.
gjrk
370 posts

Edited Jun 02, 2010, 08:59
Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 02, 2010, 08:58
Er. Sorry about that. I did go on a bit there.

...your hypothetical action might well be the most 'real' of all offerings. I wouldn't fancy tidying up after you though ;)
Mustard
1043 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 02, 2010, 09:26
megadread wrote:

But that's the accepted way of disposing of our rubbish, is it not. ?

Being accepted doesn't make something right.

megadread wrote:
I know it's not ideal but unfortunately it's the only means of disposal available to most of us, and it's legal, leaving your crap at ancient sites is not, it's littering, simple.

Well it's not simple, is it? If it was, everyone would hold the same view and behave in the same way. And if legality is our moral compass, how do we feel about governments destroying ancient sites to build roads?

Again, I'm not disagreeing with you in principle, but the tone that always comes across in these discussions is counter-productive. It's better to understand why people do what they do and to try and change their ways through reasoned discussion. Just because someone doesn't see things in the same way as you, it doesn't mean that they lack personal integrity. Some may feel that offerings are entirely legitimate and feel quite morally justified in leaving them. That doesn't make them bad people - it simply means that they may not have looked at things from your perspective. And encouraging them to do so is best achieved without lecturing. Please don't take this as a personal criticism, because I can understand why people get so passionate about this issue.

megadread wrote:
Close to Barbrook 1 stone circle is a reconstructed cairn, every time i go there i find more and more little bits of quartz and to be honest i don't mind that as they're usually hidden under the stones, it's the bits of plastic tat that wind me up, in full view of everyone who visits, when these items become weather worn and dirty do the original owners return to take them away, i think not, they get lobbed to one side in the long grass then take a thousand years to rot, i just can't see how anyone can accept that as responsible behaviour.
As for tea lights, don't get me started on them. : z

I agree that leaving such things is pretty ignorant, and there's little excuse for it, but good habits are something that we have to teach. In our throw-away society, I think it simply doesn't occur to people that leaving such crap is unacceptable. We need to engage with such folk and educate them. They probably don't realise that they're doing anything wrong.
megadread
1202 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 02, 2010, 12:22
I agree that leaving such things is pretty ignorant, and there's little excuse for it, but good habits are something that we have to teach. In our throw-away society, I think it simply doesn't occur to people that leaving such crap is unacceptable. We need to engage with such folk and educate them. They probably don't realise that they're doing anything wrong.


But these people are supposed to be "in touch" with nature, the natural world and the "vibe" of the stones / sites aren't they. ?
Whilst i get your point i just can't understand how they can justify leaving something so unnatural at a site they revere knowing full well it will take centuries to break down.
People make long journeys in some cases to leave these offerings so why not put the same effort into sourcing a real rose for example instead of leaving a plastic one. ?
If i was of a mind to leave an offering i'd put a little thought into it, leaving stuff that won't naturally break down is just offensive to me and selfish on their part imo.
revnox
92 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 02, 2010, 19:00
"I'm not conversant with any" sorry I was under the misapprehension that you had already suggested that the harvest festival was one?

" and would really appreciate which ones are meant....because it would only be guesswork on my behalf" sardonic with just a hint of throwing down the gauntlet.
However I am surprised that one so erudite would need illumination, especially one who states "but I've always thought that the origins of Harvest Festival were derived from a seasonal sacrifice...glad to be proven wrong" after I had stated (I think we can consider innumerable 'ongoing' traditions regarding sacrifice and the seasons) admittedly I had seasons (not seasonal) and sacrifice in the obverse order. So no wonder you were perplexed!
don't worry I will come to the crux of the matter soon.

"We are talking about this country though...and I think, through reading your reply(feel free to correct me though)..that you are agreeing with me that the harvest festival might indeed be one of the oldest ongoing traditions" I do to some degree in terms of one of the oldest, 'one of' being the operable part! although I believe your exact words were "The Harvest Festival", although adopted by Christianity, is in fact a throwback to an older tradition...so quite possibly it is the oldest"ongoing" tradition"
slightly different emphasis and yet it makes all the difference, wouldn't you agree?
"one of the oldest" implies sharing it's antiquity with others!
where as "so quite possibly it is the oldest" implies it is older than the others, makes all the difference doesn't it?
get the gist?

"like I say..the others which spring to(my) mind would only be speculation"
Your original position was speculation also!
That is exactly the point! you are speculating that one transformed or reinterpreted rite has a greater degree of veracity and a more authentic provenance, and why? It would appear because it fits neatly into your prescription of rites and offerings at sites. vested interest? it would appear so!

"You could always start a new thread listing "The Oldest Ongoing UK Traditions"....I can think of 5 possibles...but it'd be interesting to see your list first so I can compare and contrast"
Again the transparent attempt at challenges, how can you compare and contrast when you have already said " and would really appreciate which ones are meant....because it would only be guesswork on my behalf" this was on the same page for goodness sake, unless of course you were deceiving me to try and exploit my response, bad boy.

"...and also to see what other readers think are suitable candidates for inclusion" Oh dear and we finish with the the school yard tactic of co-opting ones peers to bait..ever the sign of passive/aggressive and one that you have obviously no need to sell to a particular individual who pops up to snide (I would say he will be on next...but he just might avoid it now)

Now that has been dealt with back to the list, but of course we will have to accept that none of these are exclusively British. Of course you knew that!
Rites relating to water, offerings at sacred wells and springs.
Rites relating to Death, offerings for the dead and relating to rebirth (as I am sure you are aware the harvest festival is inextricably linked to these)
Rites relating to sacred areas whether geographical, mythical or to flora and fauna.
Of course the list goes on and on.
But of course the easiest course open to you now is to ask me to specify the particular rites.....so please do.
Go on ask me?
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