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The Modern Antiquarian Forum » Tidying up offerings |
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revnox 92 posts |
Jun 01, 2010, 17:17
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"But surely this would've applied to the "pillocks with metal detectors" you pilloried with, IMO a great deal of disdain if not hatred on another topic, admittedly you recanted your rant about them as you checked and found they hadn't damaged the site(yet)where ever it is...but like I said they may come back...(and by doing nothing ..you will be party to the site being desecrated) However your freedom of expression(ie to commune with nature)was destroyed because you were forced to leave. Their methods according to your narrative were highly intimidating and you were there to witness their facial expressions etc after all.... Reading your statement here, I now "assume" that if they ever returned in your presence and disrupted your communing session you wouldn't "leave with a bitter taste in your mouth", but rather allow them free rein to express their love of treasure hunting and stealing of historic artefacts by encouraging them? Please assure me my assumption is wrong by saying you would actively deter these thieves from not only stealing any ancient finds(at least inform the appropriate authority), but also from stealing your freedom of expression and right to be there, because your meditative communing with nature at these sites rather than leave any physical proof or testament is what most posters on this thread are trying to encourage.[/quote] I can see your point to a degree and I did in fact treat the detector men with disdain it wasn't because they were there or even the detectors just the plain bad manners! I would consider anyone lacking in common courtesy with disdain after all manners are what lubricate the wheels of social interaction. However that said destroying or removing quite innocent and non-harmful symbols etc is as bad mannered as any other imposition be it music litter etc etc And I can assure you the site in question is being watched quite closely, my friend is it's closest neighbour and rather a large chap. I concur the rubbish, damage and other harmful or bad mannered interactions should be stopped! However I would not leave it to the jack booted stone police whoever they are!
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Littlestone 5386 posts |
Jun 01, 2010, 17:39
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You could argue comedians and actors use it "timing" or "meaningful silence " Yes, even a good speaker or storyteller. There is a tendency in the West to always want to fill spaces, to put our mark on something rather than just leaving it as it is. I only know (reasonably well) one other culture other than this one and that is the culture of Japan; leaving things 'as they are' permeates almost every facet of Japanese aesthetic taste; from painting, gardening, architecture - even the 'simplicity' of their cuisine. Perhaps leaving things 'as they are' is not quite right though, more a tendency to bring out the natural qualities of something. Wood (other than that used for Shinto shrines) is rarely painted but instead selected and displayed for the beauty of its grain. Food is rarely covered with a sauce but left as it is. Gardens fall either into the very minimal rock garden category or are designed to reflect nature (English landscape gardening comes close to this as well). In all of this man plays a very small role. Landscape painting might show a tiny figure or two walking a mountain path but little more. Such an approach to naturalness and simplicity is enshrined in the Japanese philosophy of wabi and sabi, the characteristics of which, "...include asymmetry, asperity [rusticity], simplicity, modesty, intimacy, and the suggestion of natural processes." ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi ). There are seeming contradictions though (and I don't mean the high-rise buildings and electronics of modern Japan or the Japanese misuse of natural resources) I mean that the trees in Japanese temples and shrines are often festooned with paper offerings and prayers in the same way as some of the offerings being discussed here. These offerings are in designated areas however and they are collected each year and ritually burnt (a little more here - http://heritageaction.wordpress.com/2009/08/29/votive-offerings-and-dondo-yaki/ ). Something similar is found in Greek Orthodox churches, where a corner of the church is sometimes set aside for offerings; it's not uncommon to see eyes, ears and other body parts made of wax hanging in one corner of a church - presumably placed there for a while and then either reclaimed by their owners or disposed of by the priest(s). In this country perhaps the oldest and most meaningful example of a ritualized 'green' offering is the Harvest Festival - food and flowers placed in the church for a short time but not left there to go to waste - there would be no point in doing that.
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revnox 92 posts |
Jun 01, 2010, 18:19
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So would you equate this 'emptiness' 'pause' with sunyatta? or the pause and emptiness inherent in Wing chun kung fu Siu Lim Tao Form?
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nigelswift 8112 posts |
Jun 01, 2010, 18:21
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In this country perhaps the oldest and most meaningful example of a ritualized 'green' offering is the Harvest Festival - food and flowers placed in the church for a short time but not left there to go to waste What a spiffing idea for offerings at megalithic sites! Leave unobtrusive little caches of stuff that have cost real money (and effort) that would benefit old folks or sick children in hospital and let those who prefer their sites uncluttered take the trouble to deliver them to beneficiaries instead of chucking them. Spirits pleased... offerers sincerified by financial effort.... chuckers ennobled... litter banished.... fogies delighted..... :)
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Jun 01, 2010, 18:27
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ooh sounds a bit like geocaching to me... (runs very quickly away)
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revnox 92 posts |
Jun 01, 2010, 18:28
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nigelswift wrote: goIn this country perhaps the oldest and most meaningful example of a ritualized 'green' offering is the Harvest Festival - food and flowers placed in the church for a short time but not left there to to waste What a spiffing idea for offerings at megalithic sites! Leave unobtrusive little caches of stuff that have cost real money (and effort) that would benefit old folks or sick children in hospital and let those who prefer their sites uncluttered take the trouble to deliver them to beneficiaries instead of chucking them. Spirits pleased... offerers sincerified by financial effort.... chuckers ennobled... litter banished.... fogies delighted..... :) Just another small problem here again, who prescribes what one can and cannot give? ( other than that prescribed by non-harm) Who prescribes how and where it is disposed? As for the idea that [quote="nigelswift"]goIn this country perhaps the oldest and most meaningful example of a ritualized 'green' offering is the Harvest Festival - food and flowers placed in the church for a short time but not left there to to waste well that is highly debatable as to meaningful and again as to oldest!
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Resonox 604 posts |
Jun 01, 2010, 18:30
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tjj wrote: I guess if you were a new contributor to the forum you might be put off if you thought you were perceived to be in the eccentric minority. I am a new contributor to the forum, but really don't care how people percieve me unless it is too far off the mark....I might be wrong here...but are you perhaps confusing me with Revnox....his user-name is spookily close to mine....as far as I can make out though, he is a newer contributor than me, unless you know better????tjj wrote: PS: I am very flattered by the close scrutiny you give my posts - being in the 'eccentric minority' myself I'm not used to the attention. I really don't give them any more scrutiny than any other posts, I do try to absorb, analyse and generally agree with(not always an option though) every post I read. As you seem to enjoy the heady to and fro of debate that my observations seem to throw up it may appear that there is an inordinate amount of scrutiny...rest assured there isn't....but I in return am flattered you think so.
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Resonox 604 posts |
Jun 01, 2010, 18:36
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I think it is widely accepted that "The Harvest Festival", although adopted by christianity, is in fact a throwback to an older tradition...so quite possibly it is the oldest"ongoing" tradition.
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revnox 92 posts |
Jun 01, 2010, 18:44
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Resonox wrote: I think it is widely accepted that "The Harvest Festival", although adopted by christianity, is in fact a throwback to an older tradition...so quite possibly it is the oldest"ongoing" tradition. Sorry to contradict however I think we can consider innumerable 'ongoing' traditions regarding sacrifice and the seasons, death and rebirth etc to be as old if not older! So your remark as to it being the oldest is patently untrue at worst and subjectively selective at best.
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thesweetcheat 6210 posts |
Jun 01, 2010, 19:37
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Yay! On all points.
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