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Resonox
604 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 05:37
revnox wrote:
sorry if i was rude, funny we don't always realise how things may be read in the absence of facial expression and tone etc.
All that said, I still feel that individuals expression of devotion, love, gratitude etc are as valid (if not more so) than disdain, anger dismissal and hatred. One lifts us up, however little and the other divides us.
If there is no damage to the site nor it's environment then we should like compassionate adults put aside our personal likes and dislikes and live and let live.

But surely this would've applied to the "pillocks with metal detectors" you pilloried with, IMO a great deal of disdain if not hatred on another topic, admittedly you recanted your rant about them as you checked and found they hadn't damaged the site(yet)where ever it is...but like I said they may come back...(and by doing nothing ..you will be party to the site being desecrated)
However your freedom of expression(ie to commune with nature)was destroyed because you were forced to leave. Their methods according to your narrative were highly intimidating and you were there to witness their facial expressions etc after all....
Reading your statement here, I now "assume" that if they ever returned in your presence and disrupted your communing session you wouldn't "leave with a bitter taste in your mouth", but rather allow them free rein to express their love of treasure hunting and stealing of historic artefacts by encouraging them? Please assure me my assumption is wrong by saying you would actively deter these thieves from not only stealing any ancient finds(at least inform the appropriate authority), but also from stealing your freedom of expression and right to be there, because your meditative communing with nature at these sites rather than leave any physical proof or testament is what most posters on this thread are trying to encourage.
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Edited Jun 01, 2010, 07:54
Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 07:42
Resonox wrote:
revnox wrote:
sorry if i was rude, funny we don't always realise how things may be read in the absence of facial expression and tone etc.
All that said, I still feel that individuals expression of devotion, love, gratitude etc are as valid (if not more so) than disdain, anger dismissal and hatred. One lifts us up, however little and the other divides us.
If there is no damage to the site nor it's environment then we should like compassionate adults put aside our personal likes and dislikes and live and let live.

But surely this would've applied to the "pillocks with metal detectors" you pilloried with, IMO a great deal of disdain if not hatred on another topic, admittedly you recanted your rant about them as you checked and found they hadn't damaged the site(yet)where ever it is...but like I said they may come back...(and by doing nothing ..you will be party to the site being desecrated)
However your freedom of expression(ie to commune with nature)was destroyed because you were forced to leave. Their methods according to your narrative were highly intimidating and you were there to witness their facial expressions etc after all....
Reading your statement here, I now "assume" that if they ever returned in your presence and disrupted your communing session you wouldn't "leave with a bitter taste in your mouth", but rather allow them free rein to express their love of treasure hunting and stealing of historic artefacts by encouraging them? Please assure me my assumption is wrong by saying you would actively deter these thieves from not only stealing any ancient finds(at least inform the appropriate authority), but also from stealing your freedom of expression and right to be there, because your meditative communing with nature at these sites rather than leave any physical proof or testament is what most posters on this thread are trying to encourage.


I like what you have said Revnox though can see that Resonox also feels passionately about this issue (he/she reminds me of someone). Good points both well made - here's to tolerance, 'live and let live', and education of the ill-informed.

I thought maybe some music to start the day "Don't let me be misunderstood" or "All you need is love" - I've opted for this one (don't leave Revnox, its good to have debate and different points of view).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CnrPP3qkM0E
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 07:57
Littlestone wrote:
Could it be 'mu' Mr g?

"Mu (Japanese/Korean), and Wu (Chinese traditional: 無, simplified: 无 pinyin: wú Jyutping: mou2), is a word which has been roughly translated as "no", "none", "null", "without", and "no meaning". While used in Japanese and Chinese mainly as a prefix to indicate the absence of something (e.g., 無線/无线 musen or wúxiàn for "wireless"), in English it is better known as a response to certain koans and other questions in Zen Buddhism, intending to indicate that the question itself was meaningless."*

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)


No , it's definitely "ma" , a musical term usually related to rhythm where the importance between "events " or instrument hit is as important the "events " i.e. it's the silences that count .Possibly exemplified in western music pop music by B.B. King and "serious" by Webern ,it's what you don't play that's important .
tjj
tjj
3606 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 08:11
tiompan wrote:
Littlestone wrote:
Could it be 'mu' Mr g?

"Mu (Japanese/Korean), and Wu (Chinese traditional: 無, simplified: 无 pinyin: wú Jyutping: mou2), is a word which has been roughly translated as "no", "none", "null", "without", and "no meaning". While used in Japanese and Chinese mainly as a prefix to indicate the absence of something (e.g., 無線/无线 musen or wúxiàn for "wireless"), in English it is better known as a response to certain koans and other questions in Zen Buddhism, intending to indicate that the question itself was meaningless."*

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)


No , it's definitely "ma" , a musical term usually related to rhythm where the importance between "events " or instrument hit is as important the "events " i.e. it's the silences that count .Possibly exemplified in western music pop music by B.B. King and "serious" by Webern ,it's what you don't play that's important .


It seems the perfect metaphor for 'offerings' - an empty space filled with itself. The person making the offering could then mentally visualise anything they want into it ... perhaps.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 08:32
I'd like to back you up on both of your main points Resonox, lest you be characterised as being in an eccentric minority (which is the reverse of the truth) or somehow unreasonable (which is so patently not the case).

First, to ask the vast majority who leave nothing at sites to take a "live and let live" attitude to the tiny minority that foist their own wishes on everyone else in a physical form is PC gone mad. If the majority remove some stuff and kindly allow some stuff to remain the leavers should be being humbly and guiltily grateful not asserting their "rights" to have their stuff left untouched or having them asserted for them.

Second, if anyone sees anyone metal detecting on a protected site that's a criminal, imprisonable offence, and the damage they are doing is precisely and exactly of the nature of painting graffiti on stones, (but worse actually, as it's stealing knowledge as well as damaging sites) so tell the police, it ain't rocket science. They belong behind bars. Ain't I intolerant, eh? Yes I bloody am.
Mustard
1043 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 08:39
megadread wrote:


Leaving anything behind in the countryside, in the city, in the park etc etc is littering, simple.

But chucking your litter in a bin so it can be buried somewhere out of site and out of mind is better how, exactly?

I totally support the principle of keeping our ancient sites free of junk, but an awful lot of the arguments being deployed to support this principle are extremely simplistic. Life is seldom best described by black-and-white absolutes, and condemning people in such a fashion is likely to do more to alienate them than to win them around to your way of thinking.

Frankly, if I left a couple of flowers at a stone circle and someone told me I was "littering", I'd tell them where they could stick it. If they spoke to me respectfully and explained why they felt it was a bad idea, I'd be extremely inclined to listen to them.
gjrk
370 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 09:02
Thanks George. The example that Haino used was Syd Barrett (embarrassed to admit that I don't know what his music sounds like?), but that he understood it instinctively.

It just seemed serendipitous, considering the topic ;)
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 09:22
gjrk wrote:
Thanks George. The example that Haino used was Syd Barrett (embarrassed to admit that I don't know what his music sounds like?), but that he understood it instinctively.

It just seemed serendipitous, considering the topic ;)


Syd Barrett ?? That's not what I would have expected . If you havn't heard him possibly worth a listen . Part of a tradition of middle class English eccentricity much beloved by white male adolescents from the same demographic .Better get me coat methinks .
The Sea Cat
The Sea Cat
3608 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 09:33
tiompan wrote:
Littlestone wrote:
Could it be 'mu' Mr g?

"Mu (Japanese/Korean), and Wu (Chinese traditional: 無, simplified: 无 pinyin: wú Jyutping: mou2), is a word which has been roughly translated as "no", "none", "null", "without", and "no meaning". While used in Japanese and Chinese mainly as a prefix to indicate the absence of something (e.g., 無線/无线 musen or wúxiàn for "wireless"), in English it is better known as a response to certain koans and other questions in Zen Buddhism, intending to indicate that the question itself was meaningless."*

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)


No , it's definitely "ma" , a musical term usually related to rhythm where the importance between "events " or instrument hit is as important the "events " i.e. it's the silences that count .Possibly exemplified in western music pop music by B.B. King and "serious" by Webern ,it's what you don't play that's important .



Re: BB King, the Blues often uses deliberately syncopated gaps for emphasis, and in Jazz Miles Davis was an extraordinary example of incorporating silence into musical structure.

Syd Barrett, beloved of white male 'adolescents' eh ?
;-)
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Tidying up offerings
Jun 01, 2010, 09:58
The Sea Cat wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Littlestone wrote:
Could it be 'mu' Mr g?

"Mu (Japanese/Korean), and Wu (Chinese traditional: 無, simplified: 无 pinyin: wú Jyutping: mou2), is a word which has been roughly translated as "no", "none", "null", "without", and "no meaning". While used in Japanese and Chinese mainly as a prefix to indicate the absence of something (e.g., 無線/无线 musen or wúxiàn for "wireless"), in English it is better known as a response to certain koans and other questions in Zen Buddhism, intending to indicate that the question itself was meaningless."*

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)


No , it's definitely "ma" , a musical term usually related to rhythm where the importance between "events " or instrument hit is as important the "events " i.e. it's the silences that count .Possibly exemplified in western music pop music by B.B. King and "serious" by Webern ,it's what you don't play that's important .



Re: BB King, the Blues often uses deliberately syncopated gaps for emphasis, and in Jazz Miles Davis was an extraordinary example of incorporating silence into musical structure.

Syd Barrett, beloved of white male 'adolescents' eh ?
;-)


yep Miles is probably as good an example western Ma that you could get , although not the earlier bebop stuff .

I did say I'd get me coat , but I'd still stand by that demographic , although some of the adolescents have aged .
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