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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Feb 18, 2012, 12:17
Feb 18, 2012, 11:56
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riverman wrote: Squid Tempest wrote: I think that is part of why I'm enjoying it more than I initially thought I was going to. It's been making me grin. Regarding the guns etc - why can't this just be a provocative stance? Get the authorities worried, shake some folk out of their apathy, get people stirred into peaceful action (this is assuming anybody outside HH notices the album - there's usually a review or two by now of a new JC album). Assuming similar ideas were worked into a novel or a film and the cover of both had someone wielding a gun would that create such a storm? Why can't it just be provocative? That's the Death in June argument. The idea that one is contemptibly bourgeois if you challenge the uncritical use of certain imagery. Personally I have a deep problem with anything that could be taken to be a literal celebration of those activists for whom the death of civilians was an acceptable and necessary part of the collatoral damage incurred in the "struggle". That made them no better than Hitler and his indiscriminate bombing of the Thames U bend. Or Guernica. There are some fences you can't play both sides of even with the application of any number of layers of irony. Especially from the comfort of a Safe European Home. "I'd stay an' be a tourist but i can't take the gunplay". Indeed.
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riverman 845 posts |
Feb 18, 2012, 16:57
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IanB wrote: riverman wrote: Squid Tempest wrote: I think that is part of why I'm enjoying it more than I initially thought I was going to. It's been making me grin. Regarding the guns etc - why can't this just be a provocative stance? Get the authorities worried, shake some folk out of their apathy, get people stirred into peaceful action (this is assuming anybody outside HH notices the album - there's usually a review or two by now of a new JC album). Assuming similar ideas were worked into a novel or a film and the cover of both had someone wielding a gun would that create such a storm? Why can't it just be provocative? That's the Death in June argument. The idea that one is contemptibly bourgeois if you challenge the uncritical use of certain imagery. Personally I have a deep problem with anything that could be taken to be a literal celebration of those activists for whom the death of civilians was an acceptable and necessary part of the collatoral damage incurred in the "struggle". That made them no better than Hitler and his indiscriminate bombing of the Thames U bend. Or Guernica. There are some fences you can't play both sides of even with the application of any number of layers of irony. Especially from the comfort of a Safe European Home. "I'd stay an' be a tourist but i can't take the gunplay". Indeed. I confess my wording 'just provocative' didn't sound good there - my point really was the following sentence about stirring people into some kind of action/debate/a wake up call or whatever. My understanding of Cope's trip is he is standing out on an extreme and trying to challenge people, which is what I like about him (as well as the music itself) even if I don't like the gun imagery. I totally understand your points above. But the album did get me thinking (as a pacifist who never even had a school fight) would there have been any situation in the past when I would have picked up a gun myself e.g would I have gone to Spain with George Orwell et al.? 2nd World War?; A more challenging question - what situation could arise in the future? None I hope but obviously it's our duty to prevent such situations from arising and keep our safe european home. It's probably my innate pessimism but I do worry about where we are headed - I think as I said to you in the pub over Xmas it's a bit worrying when the government can force massive change in the higher education system (that nobody has voted for if you read the Tory manifesto) and get away with it - surely in universities there must be enough intellect to see that these changes are undemocratic, but we've failed to stop the them. There were big demonstrations but no real media coverage unless something violent happened (note the early copies of the Evening Standard before Millbank, a small para page 10 or so for the largest student demo in a generation). More worrying is the corporate hijacking of democracy - read Shaxson's - Treasure Islands: Tax Havens and the Men Who Stole the World for a history of that and the negative impact they have had on the world, despite the BBC Today Programme, Richard Branson and U2 et al. thinking they're ok. The City of London Corporation clearly controls our political parties (John Smith sowed the seeds for Labour's election win by cosying up to them). In fact the CLC even seems to be above the Queen in a hierarchy of British institutions. Corporations in the City of London even get votes, mutliple votes depending on their size!!. Shaxson argues we need to change that soon, or unaccountable corporations will be controlling our lives more and more in the future. I think I've digressed... though bringing the post back to Psychedelic Revolution, I can confirm that the Shaxson book is a far better way of focusing people's energies to the cause - you can recommend it to friends and family for a start!
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Feb 18, 2012, 20:18
Feb 18, 2012, 17:26
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riverman wrote: It's probably my innate pessimism but I do worry about where we are headed - I think as I said to you in the pub over Xmas it's a bit worrying when the government can force massive change in the higher education system (that nobody has voted for if you read the Tory manifesto) and get away with it - surely in universities there must be enough intellect to see that these changes are undemocratic, but we've failed to stop the them. Absolutely. I am not unworried. It has been the intelligent condition of any one paying attention since the hunter gatherers stopped hunter gathering and social stratification (and with it slavery) came into play. But we're like the tramps in Godot Estragon "I can't go on like this" Vladimir "That's what you think". As for the album in question it just seemed to me at first sight like a regressive and wholly macho trip to be rolling out the hardware for a photo op. The imagery makes me think not of idealised leftist heroism, making the ultimate sacrifice in the face of injustice and tyranny, but of the Angels at Altamont and the naive idiocy of the Stones.
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PMM 3155 posts |
Feb 18, 2012, 20:16
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I think it's consistent with all the other stuff Cope does. Is Dorian's blog macho for example? It comes from pretty much the same political position.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Feb 18, 2012, 20:20
Feb 18, 2012, 20:19
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PMM wrote: I think it's consistent with all the other stuff Cope does. Is Dorian's blog macho for example? It comes from pretty much the same political position. This isn't about ideology it is about glorying in the gun as a tool for politcal change. Does she do that?
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PMM 3155 posts |
Edited Feb 18, 2012, 22:19
Feb 18, 2012, 20:26
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With qualifications, she does pretty much that, yes. http://www.onthisdeity.com/13th-november-the-birth-of-the-ak-47/ Also, the people they choose to write guest articles at On This Deity is consistent. Another example is what Julian chooses to allow to be archived in the U-Know features section. The message is unambiguous, and is reinforced by the choice of Merrick Godhaven as the overseer of that section of the site. And then there's direct action and involvement, from the poll-tax protests onwards. So to me, JC has been fighting the fight, by every means he can think of for over 20 years now. The music is just one means of many, but everything is directed to the same end.
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stray 2057 posts |
Feb 19, 2012, 06:48
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PMM wrote: So to me, JC has been fighting the fight, by every means he can think of for over 20 years now. The music is just one means of many, but everything is directed to the same end. What end ? I've never picked up anything more consistent from JC other than highlighting whats fucked up, which is fine, but its not an end is it. I've never detected anything approaching an ideology, an alternative or a strategy to adopt. A Wake up call then ? Seriously ? Thats not required either, if you look around the world there is an upsurge of activity against the current systems so no wake up is required. I'm not saying that JC needs to state an ideology, nor does he need to get involved in anything approaching an ideological debate, just lets not pretend that he has an 'end' in mind. You could say his end is just to spark debate, fine, but if he doesn't have an argument himself then he's just a troll right ? Thats okay too, and maybe all a musician like himself can hope to do/be. Maybe he sees that arguing his own politic properly would be counter-productive, alienating, but that attitude would be one of just self preservation right ? As in he'd alienate himself from his audience. Riverman says its made him think about possible situations where he would take up a gun. Thats interesting I suppose, but I don't think that is the purpose of those images on the album. To me its all just part of the pose. Personally, I've always accepted that during any kind of revolutionary struggle that time would more than likely come, although as I've argued earlier in this thread that maybe there are other approaches that wouldn't lead to that (but its highly unlikely). Also, as marxist and other earlier anarchist methods have never actually delivered, that maybe its probably a good idea to try and think about completely different approaches and ideologies. Thing is though, and this is key, why the fuck is he constantly using the Anarchist Communist flag ? Is that what he is now ? If it isn't then put the flag down. I would be highly impressed if he said 'yep, I am an anarchist Communist'. It would reveal a hitherto unseen and unheard level of political commitment and thought from him. Also as Ian B says these images merely appear to be glorifying the gun.. Well, they're not really, they're actually glorifying himself with the gun if you consider the context. Troublesome, confusing, and not sharp enough to be interpreted as a dadaist or situationist statement. To me its all just music and image, posturing, entertaining, definitely not thought provoking imo. Also, well, quite offensive and not in a good way, just more in a sad credibility underlining way.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Feb 19, 2012, 08:41
Feb 19, 2012, 08:24
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PMM wrote: So to me, JC has been fighting the fight, by every means he can think of for over 20 years now. The music is just one means of many, but everything is directed to the same end. Isn't the "end" to make Julian Cope's rock n roll fizz that little bit more in the market place than the next quinquagenarian in leather trousers? Otherwise why bother? There are other art forms and less tainted media conduits where the same social/political ends could be purused more effectively in the 21st century. Rock n roll? Who really cares about rock n roll any more? Every piece of rock imagery worth it's weight in newsprint has been co-opted by the mainstream to sell other crappy consumerist ephemera. When it comes to the cultural packaging of discontent what I want, what I expect, is Albert Ayler meets John Heartfield via "Y" and Penderecki. Just try co-opting Albert Ayler or Threnody to the Victims of Hiroshima. The only reason I care about this record and feel obliged to engage in the debate is because I like reading this forum and the existence of the various Cope releases presumably subsidises our ability to meet here. To come here and ignore a Cope release would be impolite (buying them is like paying an HH toll) but this record demands a bit of discussion because I think that it has much to say to us about how denuded of relevance rock n roll is in 2012. It's a museum music and the people who still care about it (myself included) and the people who play it (myself included) are rearranging the deckchairs on the ghost ship of a dead art form. I think the gun on the cover speaks to that in a major way but not to much else.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Feb 19, 2012, 09:02
Feb 19, 2012, 08:31
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That's the thing. Even if it is what it says it is, what's the aim here other than taking power away from "motherfuckers" and the "greedheads"? What happens when you've done that bit? Even if there is a plan for when the shooting stops how many righteous revolutions conducted at gun point have survived, aims intact and not been washed away by in-fighting and the tide of reaction running the other way? Answers on the back of a postage stamp please.
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stray 2057 posts |
Edited Feb 19, 2012, 09:19
Feb 19, 2012, 09:18
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IanB wrote: When it comes to the cultural packaging of discontent what I want, what I expect, is Albert Ayler meets John Heartfield via "Y" and Penderecki. Sounds like a normal night at 'The Klinker' :D. I miss those events, Anna & I are really proud that we got to play at three of them. Its a real shame that Hugh gave up on them. We recently met up with another ex Klinker performer and we'll be playing together at an all day thing with them here in cambridge in April. But yep, in regards to the history of previous revolutions you're right, they never end well. But I remain optomistic, the positive ripples (and the initial stone drop) that came out of the failures always remain in the political conciousness. Just like culture, and music specifically, generally expands out of the positive influences of its past. Sure, it gets co-opted eventually, as the wider strata stops their flow and prevents them from reaching their true intensity, from realising their potential. My optomism stems from my strongly held belief that that won't always be the case.
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