necropolist
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Re: Is it OK for veges to eat policemen?
Jan 15, 2003, 14:34
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Interesting innit, saying you can disprove the existence of god – ooh much discussion. Saying it’s alright to eat coppers……no problems whatsoever it seems!
Must be why I like these boards
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grufty jim
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Re: Why don't vegans eat honey ?
Jan 15, 2003, 14:44
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hmmm... they're both deliberate. Farmers don't accidentally kill 'pests'. So i'm not sure i see a great distinction - though if you see one then that's where your moral compass has taken you, and i'm certainly not arguing with that.
I'm a fairly strict vegetarian, but i understand that there's a certain amount of irrationality involved... i tend to allow my own feelings of empathy be my guide; and i feel little or no empathy for insects. That's just the way i'm built, and i make no apologies for it. For that reason, neither honey production, nor the elimation of vegetable pests provide major moral quandaries for me.
I'm just confused about why one should be seen as problematic for vegans and the other not, as i cannot see any objective ethical distinction (but that's - as i've said - probably just me).
But i'm not claiming to be Mr. Consistent here by any means. I don't eat shrimp, for instance, but can't - if pressed - claim any great empathy for them. Indeed i don't see much of a distinction between them and insects.
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grufty jim
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Re: Is it OK for veges to eat policemen?
Jan 15, 2003, 14:49
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Not at all, i was merely preparing my research ;-)
Actually, your argument falls apart because one of your initial assumptions "policemen are not sentient" is clearly false.
Aside from that; i.e. if that claim was not false; then you'd be on to something. Barbecue anyone?
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necropolist
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Re: Is it OK for veges to eat policemen?
Jan 15, 2003, 15:12
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I beg to differ
As thy act as POLICEMEN, simply acting upon the diktats of the state, without using their supposed sentience, then at that time, they aint sentient, merely mindless automatons. Kinda like the buffybot, but less cute
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grufty jim
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Re: Is it OK for veges to eat policemen?
Jan 15, 2003, 15:24
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Interesting.
So basically you are providing a justification for "The Nurenberg Defence". Policemen cannot be held responsible for those acts they commit whilst policemen, because they were not sentient at the time. Following orders abrogates responsibility?
Fraid i fundammentally disagree with you. I do not feel the men who ran Auschwitz should be absolved in the manner you suggest. By not accepting that individuals (whatever uniform they were) are exercising a choice to follow - perhaps ethically repugnant - orders, you are claiming they do not share any responsibility for carrying them out.
That kind of thinking is - in my rarely humble opinion - the reason the world is such a mess.
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necropolist
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Re: Is it OK for veges to eat policemen?
Jan 15, 2003, 15:33
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but part of the point at nuremburg was that they WEREN'T just following orders, they were interpreting and following them in their own manner
tho if i follow my own logic hear, i suppose it would mean that vegan's can't eat coppers....unless they're really utter bastards!
you may have a point you know
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grufty jim
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Re: Is it OK for veges to eat policemen?
Jan 15, 2003, 15:42
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>
> but part of the point at nuremburg was that
> they WEREN'T just following orders, they
> were interpreting and following them in their
> own manner
>
The main point about Nuremburg was the decision that people cannot use "I was following orders" as a defence. We - the human race - stated clearly to all that followed, that people *cannot* be considered mindless automata. That where orders are ethically repugnant, then those carrying them out have a personal responsibility for their actions.
If you claim *as fact*: "they are mindless automata" when discussing the police; then you cannot deny that defence to those at Auschwitz without creating some kind of aribtrary and dubious double-standard.
Also, "sentient" is a tricksy word. It can mean many things; one of which is "capable of experiencing sensation or feeling", and that would be the use of the word that most vegetarians are basing their behaviour upon. Most folks would agree that the behaviour of a sheep is - by and large - far more constricted by natural instinct, than any policeman is constricted by orders from their superiors. Yet that does not become a justification for (most) veggies to eat roast lamb.
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grufty jim
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Just caught a news bulletin about the police officer stabbed to death in Manchester, and got a bit paranoid that some Daily Mail reader could stumble across this and accuse me of "comparing the police to concentration camp guards". That's NOT what i'm doing, can i state loud and clear. I was making no direct comparison between the functions of the two.
All i'm saying is that a legal (and i'd argue, ethical) precedent was set at Nuremburg. It states clearly that people cannot pass responsibility for their actions up a chain of command. Human actions cannot be justified legally or morally by using "I was ordered" as a defence.
That precedent applies equally to any and all hierarchical organisations; companies, the police force, the civil service... you name it.
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Merrick
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As Bill Hicks said
Jan 15, 2003, 17:59
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"Eternal torture awaits all who question God's infinite love"
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Merrick
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Re: Why don't vegans eat honey ?
Jan 15, 2003, 18:15
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I've always said that vegetarianism and veganism are tendencies rather than absolutes. Everyone has their own limits and blind spots. I know some very strict vegans who never ask about alcohol, or E numbers.
Vegetable food production certainly includes killing insects, and of course a fair few rats, mice, rabbits, hedgehogs and whatnot will be minced by combine harvesters.
For me, I'm fuckin squeamish about animal products. I don't want to put something in my mouth that's been squeezed out of an insect's guts.
Sure, it must happen inadvertently in foods other than honey, but for me it's rather like the way that you know that workers at processed food factories spit in your beans or bread dough, but you still eat it. But you wouldn't do so if the ingredients said 'scally phlegm'.
Regarding shrimps Grufter, it ain't just about the shit-eating little blighters themselves. Shrimp fishing is the largest waster of other marine life - they catch up to 15 times the weight of the shrimp, and then throw all the other fish and animals away, dead or dying.
Trawler fishing is just fucking outrageous. Cos we don't live underwater we don't mind the damage it does.
Imagine if, to harvest pigs, we strung a net half a mile long between 2 helicopters and dragged it across the countryside, killing all the trees, hedges, people, cows, sheep, cats, dogs and everything else in the way. Then , instead of even taking the other animals we just killed, we threw their carcasses back on to the ground to rot and only took the few pigs we'd caught. Then someone else came along a while later doing the same, but for cows. That's exactly what trawler fishing does.
Be proud of not eating shrimp, Grufty.
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