Rhiannon
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Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 22:01
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"We are where we are."
but we don't have to be so rigid about things do we? We don't have to go down May's line of 'This or Nothing'. We could try to be more objective and not cut the country's noses off to spite their faces.
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thesweetcheat
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Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 22:03
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sanshee wrote: Whether you say they have been forced or not, they will be on the other side of the negotiating table from us.
We are where we are.
Cold hard facts are there will be two sides in these negotiations, UK and EU.
UK comes to an agreement with EU, each side then has a position.
UK then unilaterally decides 'no, changed our minds'.
Like I said, do we just tell the EU to accept that or do we involve them?
Please, try to answer that one!
That aspect makes no sense to me.
One option would be for the government to make clear some things it will accept in advance of the negotiations. For example, it could guarantee the rights of the current EU workers legally living in the UK to remain. It could state whether membership of the single market is a red line. It could state whether freedom of movement of goods is a red line. It could state whether freedom of movement of people is a red line.
It could clarify those things now, before Article 50 is even triggered. Parliament (or the electorate) could be given the chance to consider that position, and see if it wanted to proceed.
The argument that the government does not want to reveal its hand is specious. If those things were clarified up front, the negotiations would proceed on that footing. But they won't do that, because of one of two reasons (I'm not sure which is correct): either they have no plan and all is chaos and confusion, or they don't want to tell Parliament and the people what it is they are intending to negotiate on, or what kind of Brexit is their desired outcome.
The government could state upfront to the EU that once a deal is offered, they will consult Parliament/the electorate before agreeing to take it or not. They could also make that clear up front, both to the EU and to the UK.
As to it being "deal or no deal" at the negotiating table, you portray it as if there will be a single meeting, with an ultimatum at the end of it. But let's say that's the case: in your scenario we'd have to take the deal no matter how bad it is, because otherwise we would upset the EU by refusing the deal they've offered us after all their hard work and effort. If so, they need not offer us any concessions, as we would be duty bound to accept regardless. May has made it clear she would rather take no deal than a bad deal (i.e. crash out on WTO terms), which clearly would also be a rejection of the EU's offer.
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sanshee
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Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 22:04
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Again, please answer.
UK comes to agreement with EU, EU comes to agreement with UK.
Each got their ducks in a row and ready to go.
UK then decides, without consulting EU, no, changed our minds'.
What then?
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thesweetcheat
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Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 22:07
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sanshee wrote: Again, please answer.
UK comes to agreement with EU, EU comes to agreement with UK.
Each got their ducks in a row and ready to go.
UK then decides, without consulting EU, no, changed our minds'.
What then?
What then? We either stay in the EU - and the EU would be happy for the UK to remain a member, don't lose sight of that - or we crash out without a deal on WTO terms (which seems to be May's preferred option in that situation).
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sanshee
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Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 22:15
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I am not portraying anything as if it is a single meeeting.
I am rather confident there has been a hell of alot shuttle diplomacy and late night argy bargying going on peppered with fake smiles, and I am sure we do not get to know ever detail.
Jesus we can't know ever detail.
What does that even mean?
Article 50 was either included in good faith or as a piss take, for the EU does come with the proviso that member states can leave.
So there is no great deceit in any member state chooisng to leave.
It's a right, under EU law.
I beleive after the repeal bill, all EU laws will be enshrined into UK law.
Then it will be up to whatever government we choose to either kick out 3m people or not.
I don't think any of them would dare.
It really ain't a vote winner.
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thesweetcheat
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Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 22:23
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If the UK turns round and says, we've consulted the people on the deal and they've decided that on balance we'd rather stay in the EU, don't you think the EU would do anything they could to accommodate that? The EU does not want the UK to leave. The cost and trouble of wasted negotiations is a tiny fraction of the cost the economic effect the UK leaving the EU would have.
As for the idea that post-Brexit a Tory government will "enshrine" those EU laws for ever more? Seriously? This government will do whatever it can to reduce and undermine employment laws and human rights legislation. And do you really think they wouldn't kick out the EU workers if they thought it would win votes from the xenophobes who form much of their core support? Besides which, no general election until 2020, and no sign of Labour winning then, so don't imagine that post-Brexit May and Co will simply resign and hand the keys to Jeremy Corbyn (or whoever is the leader by then).
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nigelswift
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HEY REMAINERS LET IT GO !!!!!!
Feb 20, 2017, 07:18
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Synchronicity:
A Trump supporter yesterday: "“All the loudmouths? They need to let it go. Let it go. Shut their mouths and let the man do what he’s got to do."
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thesweetcheat
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Re: HEY REMAINERS LET IT GO !!!!!!
Feb 20, 2017, 13:02
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Yes, Trump supporters and Leavers very quick to demand to be heard, constant clamouring for change etc, but much less happy for others to want to be heard now that they've got their way.
As I've said though, the worst of the "shut up" from Leavers seems to be coming from England. Leavers in other parts seem more likely to debate and discuss.
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Captain Starlet
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Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 20, 2017, 21:12
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Totally agree with that.
What many don't understand is that the terms of leaving will be set by the reming 27 countries within the EU, not a piddly little uk.
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Captain Starlet
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Re: HEY REMAINERS LET IT GO !!!!!!
Feb 20, 2017, 21:13
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Mostly are here in Wales as many of those who voted leave have suddenly realised we're fucked!
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