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HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
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nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 09:58
Are the educated millions who voted Remain to be despised as part of the metropolitan elite?
Yes. Or so the main Brexit case asserts.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1110 posts

Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 11:45
Now? He's always supported being part of the EU! Hardly the u-turn that corbyn unspectacularly displayed while undemocratically forcing MP's to vote in line with his ego!

Comes to something when the only person in the main opposition party to act as an opposition and promote common sense is a war mongering twat! Doesn't speak volumes for the rest of them.
nigelswift
8112 posts

Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 11:59
The war mongering twat's speech was masterful. Unanswerable. So the only opposition to it has been to attack the messenger and (in Boris J's case) to say nothing had changed since July - which is the biggest Brexit lie of all.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 13:05
This will no doubt come across to some as a snobby, elitist attitude, but one of the greatest things about Britain in my opinion is that everyone is entitled to - and for the vast majority, receives - a free education. It does sometimes seem that those most vocally championing the cause of White England and the English (which must at all costs be saved from the influence, dilution or replacement by anything "foreign") are the ones least able to spell in the language they are apparently fighting to keep pure.

I say England and the English because the voices of those who voted for Leave in Wales (despite being the majority), as well as those who voted Leave in Scotland and Northern Ireland seem far less strident and harsh post-Referendum in their outright criticisms of foreigners, and anyone who has a different view to them, than their English counterparts. This will definitely be an "English Brexit", whether or not the Union survives it. The Tories have already refused to agree to provide a report to the Welsh Assembly on the effect Brexit will have on Wales, and I imagine that anyone there who still thinks Wales will be properly represented in the EU negotiations is sadly mistaken.

I won't forgive Blair for the horrors of Iraq and its consequences (which of course Johnson and the Tory opposition also fully supported at the time), but that doesn't mean I can't agree with his message here.

We are being pushed towards an outcome that will not bring the anticipated return to halcyon days of some Fabled Albion, where English people all had high and equal incomes and wonderful manufacturing industries, with free healthcare, social justice for all and no danger from the dangerous ideologies or religions of foreigners.

It's a sad day when we have to look to Blair and his ilk to voice these concerns, but unfortunately "the 48%" (not to mention anyone who either didn't vote at the time, or anyone from "the 52%" who has concerns about the direction we are now heading) are constantly just told to shut up, "you lost, get over it".

Someone needs to voice those concerns, regardless of the unpalatability of the messenger. Labour will clearly not do so, as they have started uttering the dread phrase "the will of the People" as well as the Tories, scared as they are of losing votes to UKIP, so where else can those of us who are deeply concerned about where we are heading look to for a voice? Because we will not "shut up", or "get over it", any more than Leavers would have had the result been the other way around.
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Edited Feb 19, 2017, 20:29
Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 20:19
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39016392

Edit, Corbyn now a tit rifle I suppose?

Meh.

For the past 7/8 months, all the EU countries have been discussing and preparing for Brexit.

Not just us.

Blair suggests we give a big tra la la to the lot of it.

Not only undemocratic, but actually really quite dumb and awfully inconsiderate all round.
Captain Starlet
Captain Starlet
1110 posts

Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 20:51
nigelswift wrote:
The war mongering twat's speech was masterful. Unanswerable. So the only opposition to it has been to attack the messenger and (in Boris J's case) to say nothing had changed since July - which is the biggest Brexit lie of all.


He's a good speaker (still a war mongering twat) but I don't see the point in just ignoring someone because we don't like them, especially when (to me) they're talking more sense than the supposed opposition party.
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 21:05
sanshee wrote:
Blair suggests we give a big tra la la to the lot of it.

Not only undemocratic, but actually really quite dumb and awfully inconsiderate all round.


He didn't actually say that though, did he? What he said was that people should have the right to change their minds once the terms of Brexit become clear:

"I want to be explicit. Yes, the British people voted to leave Europe. And I agree the will of the people should prevail. I accept right now there is no widespread appetite to re-think. But the people voted without knowledge of the terms of Brexit. As these terms become clear, it is their right to change their mind."

Why are pro-Leave so concerned about either Parliament, or the electorate, or both, having a say on whether they want to accept the terms once they are clear? That would be another exercise in democracy, wouldn't it? Wouldn't that be "taking back control"? Does a proper democracy not allow for a change of mind? When did a political result become "in perpetuity"? that sounds more like a dictatorship than a democracy to me. The people have "spoken", yet you don't want them to have any opportunity for follow-up questions.

Could the concern be born out of the fact that once the deal becomes apparent, there might well be an awful lot less enthusiasm for it?

Once it becomes clear that there's no more money for the NHS, that net immigration will be little affected, that a lot of key workers will leave, that all the "red tape" that they complain about is actually either fictional or nothing to do with the EU (straight bananas, anyone?), that all those workers' rights they enjoy can be removed, will the electorate still be so keen on going ahead at that point?

The Tories and UKIP, now sadly with the collusion of a dysfunctional Labour, seem very keen that no-one, not even "the People" will get a chance to stop this, no matter how bad the deal is. And then you have to ask, why so keen on "Brexit at all costs"? Could it be because it fits very nicely into the Tory/UKIP ideal scenario for full privatisation and withdrawal of publicly-funded services?
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Edited Feb 19, 2017, 21:22
Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 21:22
I am saying, the negotiations are going both ways.
Who is going to ask those other European countries what they think of what they have just negotiated then being rubbished?
We would be instructing them to get back to the drawing board.
Why is that particular gig just for the people of the UK?
How would we include the rest of the EU in any sudden shift from 'our' perspective?
Don't you think that could be a problem?
Wouldn't they find that arrogant?
thesweetcheat
thesweetcheat
6200 posts

Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 21:41
I don't really see or agree with that argument. The other EU countries have been forced into this negotiation in the first place by the UK's decision. If we were worried about seeming arrogant, putting them to trouble and expense or upsetting our EU neighbours, maybe we shouldn't have held a referendum or voted leave!

According to May it's her way or no way anyway, which doesn't exactly come across as someone wanting to be accommodating or considerate of other EU countries. Or of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, who she will not give a say to at all. Especially Northern Ireland, who voted to remain by a majority that was several percentage points bigger than the much-touted "overwhelming majority" that May and Farage claim for the Leave vote as a whole. Northern Ireland, who will be the most adversely affected of all of us by a hard Brexit and the resumption of a hard border. But you'd be happy to potentially tear up the Good Friday agreement as part of the outcomes of the Brexit deal, as long as we don't appear arrogant or inconsiderate?
sanshee
sanshee
1080 posts

Edited Feb 19, 2017, 21:52
Re: HEY REMAINERS!!!!!!
Feb 19, 2017, 21:48
thesweetcheat wrote:

I don't really see or agree with that argument. The other EU countries have been forced into this negotiation in the first place by the UK's decision. If we were worried about seeming arrogant, putting them to trouble and expense or upsetting our EU neighbours, maybe we shouldn't have held a referendum or voted leave!



Whether you say they have been forced or not, they will be on the other side of the negotiating table from us.
We are where we are.
Cold hard facts are there will be two sides in these negotiations, UK and EU.
UK comes to an agreement with EU, each side then has a position.
UK then unilaterally decides 'no, changed our minds'.
Like I said, do we just tell the EU to accept that or do we involve them?
Please, try to answer that one!
That aspect makes no sense to me.
PS Please don't assume to know what I'd be 'happy' with, it's unfair.
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