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necropolist 1689 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 13:29
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You undoubtedly have something of a point. To go to either extreme - of saying its entirely the consumers fault, or its not at all the consumers fault - is incorrect. But I do not accept this notion of choice at all. Yes there are lots of little manufacturers, but they are hardly any diffeent to the 'big boys', just less successfyul. And they sell the same tat as the others, frequently paying even WORSE wages. Our choices are dictated to us, they are overwhelmingly a con. Now there are various 'ethical' companies of course, but for one thing i dispute quite a bit of their ethics too - i'll say it again, many are just the same as the big boys, or would be oif they could become as bigm, which is there aim after all. shit holes like the Body Shop, shoot that bloody woman, steals designs and recipes, pays workers shit, alows no unions, all round scumbag. personally, i hate capitalism, its tat that screws tyhnigs up, so i don't think it is possible to have an ethical version when the whole basis of the system is anti-ethical. you can just have a version that is a bit nicer than another version. and while, okay, that would be a good thing, it would be even better to get rid of the lot of it, and replace it with a system that actually IS based upon respect for human beings. You cannot realy know exactly where you're money is going when you buy anything. No matter what they tell you, the fuckers lie! And can't be trusted. Sadly this is often the case with little independent manufaturers as well as the multinational scum. Thats not to say you should completely ignore what you buy and where from, just that i dont think it is an effective method of trying to improve the majority of peoples lives to spend all your time doing so. And it does take a fair bit of time making sure everything you buy is (pseudo)ethical.
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 13:31
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You could of course eliminate profit altogether :-) now there you have a fookin top notion
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IronMan 601 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 13:34
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>the 'printer' (is there a technical-in-trade term?) I think 'print-minder' is the term your looking for 4Ws! I have had the dubious pleasure of spending many an hour passing artwork on press at print houses - both at small and large printers, and must say that the process differs very little between the two. There is always somebody minding the press, pulling sheets and making sure the colour levels stay *exactly* the same - a skill, for sure, but not exactly a creative one.
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FourWinds 10943 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 13:38
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Thanks. Have I given the impression that when I say 'uncreative' I mean 'unskilled'? These are two separate things, but I think the two are being eroded in exactly the same manner and by the same things. A bricklayer for Barrets is a skilled worker, but not a creative one. I, as a programmer in today's horrible world of software, am skilled and only slightly creative. My mum when she cooks is neither creative or skillful :-)
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 13:51
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you're right - it's the capitalist system that's the root of the problem, and because it's a self-perpetuating thing that denies there is any alternative to it it's going to be difficult to overthrow! but maybe world war three would do it (coming soon) and I know all about the time and energy put into worrying about what to buy. You should have seen me last night in the evil Safeways deliberating over the ham (stand for five minutes, go to deli counter, ask about outdoor-reared pork to utter bemusement of astonishingly ignorant butcher, he can't guarantee any of it was raised outdoors, I laugh in his face and tell him none it is, I collect shelf packet of outdoor reared ham and carry it half way round shop, in the end I return it to the shelf feeling guilty about buying meat at all (it was a kind thought for my boyfriend's sarnies)) all that guilt and worry and repeat 50x round supermarket or any other shop
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Rhiannon 5291 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 13:54
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you cheeky monkey, now go to your room
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IronMan 601 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 14:04
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>Have I given the impression that when I say >'uncreative' I mean 'unskilled'? Not at all - i'm with you all the way on what you're saying 4Ws. 'Creating' something and being 'creative' are two entirely different things, and not all 'skilled' jobs are 'creative'. I'm primarily a graphic designer (of the print based variety)and that is, supposedly, a creative job. Quite often it isn't - artworking a job isn't creative - it's just dull! I've done a little bit of programming, and have definitely found it to be a very creative process at times.
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 14:47
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I don’t think I’ve misunderstood your distinction. Just that I don’t entirely agree with it. I know what you mean about there being a distinction between ‘skilled’ and ’creative’, and to a certain extent you are right. But I think there is an element of creativity in everything we do. In one sense it’s quite straightforward – everything we do ‘creates’ something. Hence is creative. I don’t think you are meaning creative in that sense. But it’s no coincidence that that word has multiple meanings (none of which could be said to be the ‘true’ meaning I don’t think). So creative is the very act of creating anything, as well as being (what I think you mean) something that requires originality and inventiveness. But loads and loads of jobs require that at some point, even when they are generally defined by tedious repetition. So in the printshop I used to work in the majority of the time the inkers job was to pour a can of a particular colour ink into the relevant trays. Thrilling huh? But occasionally, you’d run out of ink, or not have exactly the shade you wanted, so you’d have to piss around and mix something up. Or nick it from the ‘special’ Private Eye stuff. Equally, even on a conveyor belt job there are moments of creativity – finding ways of getting more work done whilst using less labour is incredibly creative! (and not necessarily even ‘anti-company’ as it were), putting the papers in in a lovely pretty order, or an ‘amusing’ order. Of course some jobs are far far more creative than others. But still I think every job always retains SOME element of creativity within it. Creativity is (one of) the hallmarks of being this wonderful thing called ‘human’. We can’t be help use it!
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IronMan 601 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 14:51
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>finding ways of getting more work done whilst using >less labour is incredibly creative! LOL! That is a very good point!
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necropolist 1689 posts |
Sep 06, 2002, 15:09
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Wowsa, this thread is now the second longest on this here board! Only the Afghan prisoners thread has had more posts (but we’re catching up with that one rapidly). And guess who started both discussions. Well the man who has started 180 discussions off on here 22% or something. Quite astounding. N I bet you thought it was a fairly innocuous little post you originally made eh Mr 4W. God I have far too much time on my hands at the moment.
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