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handofdave 3515 posts |
Oct 24, 2009, 00:04
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IanB wrote: So instead of wringing their hands what the Lib Dems and Labour should be doing is celebrating the fact that the BNP *only* got 1m votes in this economic and social climate. Surely it is to this country's great credit that we have such a small percentage of voters actively seeking a solution from a far right party when compared with much of the rest of Europe? Coming from a country where the right wing Republicans comprise a MUCH larger portion of the population, have their own network (FOX NEWS), and routinely capture the machinery of government on all levels, I find the hullabaloo about the BNP just a little overstated. Like you say, Ian, you folks over there should feel proud to have an overwhelming left-leaning majority. I sure as hell wish we were so fortunate. The U.S. right wing, even in political defeat, are a dangerous bunch who are able to skew the agenda of the left. It's a sobering fact that Obama's win can be largely attributed to the fact that Bush and company were such utter fuckups. Unfortunately, he's proving the old stereotype about Democrats... he's caving to right wing pressure, he's not forceful enough in giving the people who elected him the change they seek, and he's far too accommodating to the very same forces that are right back to their old slimy Wall Street tricks that broke the economy. A retaking of the Federal government by the right wing in the next round of elections is almost certain under these depressing conditions. So yes, be very glad your BNP is a marginalized lot. It could be a whole lot worse.
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grufty jim 1978 posts |
Edited Oct 24, 2009, 00:12
Oct 24, 2009, 00:11
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I don't think you appreciate what the BNP are, handofdave. They are not like the Republicans in the US. That'd be the Conservatives, who are not 'marginalised'. Indeed they are likely to be the next British government. The BNP are more like the Ku Klux Klan. Which is why any rise in their support is a real concern.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Oct 24, 2009, 01:49
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grufty jim wrote: I don't think you appreciate what the BNP are, handofdave. They are not like the Republicans in the US. That'd be the Conservatives, who are not 'marginalised'. Indeed they are likely to be the next British government. The BNP are more like the Ku Klux Klan. Which is why any rise in their support is a real concern. But are they actually seeing a rise in support? I should add that the KKK and it's equivalents in the USA are Republicans, for the most part, and tho that parties official line on racism is 'it's bad', they tacitly encourage hatred of nonwhites by giving a wink and a nod to the racists, as evidenced by the tone of the GOP rallies in the last election, where Sarah Palin was given free reign to whip up the mob with talk of Obama being a 'Kenyan terrorist' and the like. Perhaps what's different about here and over there is that most of the fascist-leaning types in the USA have learned to be more careful about their language in public forums. Amongst themselves they still retain the same old language and attitudes they always have had. What's better... to have the fascists come right out and be who they are, without apology, or disguise their real intentions? I've heard some black folks say that they'd rather live down south, where the racism is overt, and unmistakeable, than live up north, where it's still present, but masked. Know thine enemy. In other words, let the fascists make themselves known. That way there's no second guessing who's who. Don't let them go underground... drag them out into the light and show everyone what they're really about. Don't let them disguise themselves in more 'moderate' clothing. I expect that the BNP is NOT going to get more support from Griffin being on this show. Instead, it's opened up a wider dialog about why the BNP is wrong. Just as it has right here on this forum.
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Edited Oct 24, 2009, 02:21
Oct 24, 2009, 02:13
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I'm curious... what term would you use instead of 'race' to describe people? It's not a bad word in itself... I think maybe you don't like it because racists have sullied it? Variety within the human species needs SOME kind of descriptive language... it's not something that we can just pretend doesn't exist. It's not inherently 'racist' to recognize that we are of different ethnicities (is that your preferred term?) Steven Colbert often employs the joke that he doesn't know he's white because he doesn't 'see race'. What he's mocking are the conservatives that pretend they are inclusive. I think more than anything this illustrates how ordinary, un-'loaded' words definitions can be twisted into carrying meaning that IS loaded with negative connotations. When James Brown sang 'I'm Black and I'm Proud', he was embracing the term 'black'. And I don't know about anyone else, but the deliberate changing of that to 'African American' seems to me more a milquetoast technical description than an affirmation. Having racial pride... now that's a loaded subject. It can mean totally different things depending on what color you are... most infamously, 'white pride' is usually a code word for racism. Even 'pride', itself, can mean something positive or negative, completely outside the context of ethnicity.
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drewbhoy 2555 posts |
Oct 24, 2009, 03:15
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Why have us in Scotland continually got to watch the BNP, Tories, Libs, Labour, UKIP, all British parties on our TV. We're a multi racial country or trying to be and Britain drags us down, bring on the next election. Britain/Engerland would be much better without us!!
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red paeony 184 posts |
Oct 24, 2009, 03:38
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I watched it all on YouTube, as the BBC blocks all access to its programmes here in the States. I really had no idea who most of these folks are, but Nick Griffin seems to do a lot of back-pedaling. I'd bet if he were surrounded by his "troupe", he'd be spouting his racist rhetoric much more confidently. He appeared to be assuming the position of being victimized in newspaper and news headlines, and not at all culpable of his own actions. As an American, I don't know much about British politics, and I surely wouldn't presume to give much of my own two pence about it, but as a side note, I really enjoyed trying to guess the locality of the accents of the people in the audience!
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Oct 24, 2009, 04:03
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red paeony wrote: I'd bet if he were surrounded by his "troupe", he'd be spouting his racist rhetoric much more confidently. Yep... just like how in public in America the racists are very careful to modulate their language, but get 'em together in a closed room.... On more than one occasion I've had other white men assume I'm one of their fellow racists (just because I'm white) and give me the ol' nudge nudge wink wink. Get these fuckers AWAY from me.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Oct 24, 2009, 10:29
Oct 24, 2009, 10:15
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The best bullwark against the BNP is a Labour party that reconnects with the Labour movement and the needs of the blue collar worker and a Tory party that is honest about the views of the rump of its supporters and doesn't pretend they are a blue shade of New Labour Lite. It is also worth keeping in mind that the people with most to gain from a bump in BNP numbers are the far left. These are two sets of discredited parasites who feed off of eachother to the massive disinterest of the wider population. I take anything that the far left says about the far right and vice versa with a massive pinch of salt.
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IanB 6761 posts |
Edited Oct 24, 2009, 10:25
Oct 24, 2009, 10:21
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grufty jim wrote: I don't think you appreciate what the BNP are, handofdave. They are not like the Republicans in the US. That'd be the Conservatives, who are not 'marginalised'. Indeed they are likely to be the next British government. The BNP are more like the Ku Klux Klan. Which is why any rise in their support is a real concern. Given the history of the British Union of Fascists, the NF and British Movement et al I can see why you would say that. Though the BNP look much more like the Tories of my youth to me. I guess the question here is at what point did the likes of say Sinn Fein stop being a political wing of the IRA and become a legitimate party? Because what seems to be on the table here is a whether the BNP are fought with more persuasive policies or fought on the streets and in the courts as a pariah? Also on the old left < > right political compass the American right (who get enormous amounts of air time) would make the BNP look like Tony Blair by comparison.
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Jim Tones 5142 posts |
Edited Oct 24, 2009, 11:39
Oct 24, 2009, 11:05
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drewbhoy wrote: Why have us in Scotland continually got to watch the BNP, Tories, Libs, Labour, UKIP, all British parties on our TV. We're a multi racial country or trying to be and Britain drags us down, bring on the next election. Britain/Engerland would be much better without us!! No doubt some history student here will bark about the 'act of union' of 1536, between Wales and England, but the Welsh weren't exactly left to the decision No dragon in the union jack! ;-)
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