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Stevo
Stevo
6664 posts

opinions on last night's question time
Oct 23, 2009, 10:32
thought the tinpot looked like a cackling idiot, Bonnie Greer was great and Jack Straw looked almost human in relation to you know who.
Seen the Daily Mail poll thing that said it was a PR victory, not sure if that was before or after the show.

What'd you think?
Just thought I'd start a separate thread cos the other one's getting pretty long.

Stevo
mojojojo
mojojojo
1940 posts

Re: opinions on last night's question time
Oct 23, 2009, 10:38
Well I didn't watch it but it was all on the radio and in the papers. Gotta be a PR coup - he shouldn't have been there in the first place. Not gonna look but I bet they're all masturbating on the nazi websites about how he held is own in the left wing Marxist onslaught like the brave Nazi martyr he is. As far as I can tell he didn't make any amazing gaffes. Fucking circus. And the BBC have been right dining out on this too.

He wasn't gonna start seig heiling was he?

x
Daminxa
Daminxa
1415 posts

Re: opinions on last night's question time
Oct 23, 2009, 10:50
I thought the man came across as EXACTLY what he is. NOBODY with an ounce of sense could ever see the man to be a serious contender in politics. I'm sure there are some people in this country who ARE stupid enough to vote for the man and his odious party but they are the minority.

I really enjoyed seeing the man brought down by every other member of the panel AND the vast majority of the audience. He came across as desperately inconsistent (even for a politician!), really rather thick and as a blatant liar, even denying having said most of the disgusting diatribe he has been recorded as spouting on U-tube and so on. He was a giggling imbecile who was unable to defend himself, his party or his politics, a PR coup for the BNP it WASN'T. It was a PR coup for the British Public, demonstrating that the vast majority of folk in this fair isle enjoy living in a multicultural society and wouldn't change it for the world. And yes, I agree with Mojojojo; Jack Straw DID look good in comparison, and that's saying something!

One final word, if we DO indeed live in a socialist democracy then we HAVE to accept that an integral component of that is freedom of speech, even for twisted bigoted fuckwits of the likes of Dick Griffin (sorry but him being called Dick was the highlight of the show for me!) We don't have to agree, we can use his expression of free speech to show him to be wrong, but we CANNOT gag and silence these people, the public have a right to hear their point of view. We're not all so stupid that we'll be converted by his facism, most people, as I say, would be thoroughly disgusted by what the man says, but we need to know there IS an element in our society that do hold such revolting views. Then, I guess, it's our responsibility to reason with these people and try to explain to them the massive benefits of living in a multicultural society. And if they STILL don't get it and want everyone that can't trace their roots back to Ice Age Britain deported, it's our right to tell them that they're bigoted ignorant arsewipes.
mojojojo
mojojojo
1940 posts

Re: opinions on last night's question time
Oct 23, 2009, 10:55
"And yes, I agree with Mojojojo; Jack Straw DID look good in comparison, and that's saying something!"

That wasn't me!

Noone's saying anyone shouldn't be able to speak (although when they incite racial hatred they shouldn't), just not be invited on Question Time. And no matter how he came across,I think this plays into their hands.

x

ps: nice to see you again! xx
Daminxa
Daminxa
1415 posts

Edited Oct 23, 2009, 11:01
Re: opinions on last night's question time
Oct 23, 2009, 11:01
No, you didn't say the Jack Straw thing - getting confused and addled in me old age!

PS, lovely to BE back, feel like I've been living under a rock for the past couple of internetless years!
IanB
IanB
6761 posts

Edited Oct 23, 2009, 11:08
Re: opinions on last night's question time
Oct 23, 2009, 11:04
He was very very average. Not a great mind, not a great orator, not a great advert for his party. Weak on the holocaust. Confused on religion. Unconvincing on immigration. Unsure of himself on anything else.

He had one or two well rehearsed sound bites but lets face it his politics were mainstream as recently 35 years ago. For many Tories and a fair few in the Labour movement his form of bigotry would have been second nature in the 70s. This is not the NF of Martin Webster (what happened to him?), Lady Birdwood et al.

Of course Griffin is very much to the Far Right what Cameron is to the rank and file Tory mentality - the vanilla version of the true rank n file position. I am also quite sure he is right when he says he is hated by British Nazis. He is the Kenny G of Nazis, so keen to appear a reasonable middle-grounder that he ceases to have any real meaning as a public figure other than as a pinata for the far left.

The BBC did right to let him on as that is what 1m votes buys you and, lets face it, he has fewer and less serious convictions on his record than some serving MPs.

It wont win him many votes. It wont lose him many votes. Anyone hoping that he would sprout horns and start eating babies would have been disppointed.

The protesters should have stayed at home with a good book.
ratcni01
ratcni01
916 posts

Re: opinions on last night's question time
Oct 23, 2009, 11:17
He looked like a twat to me, I mean in terms of his opinions and the entire program was virtually "have a go at the fascist". If you are going to have a debate/conversation and try to develop dialogue with the ignorant and bigotted, which is what the program I think was trying to do, place Griffin as the representative of the far-right and represent the other parties too. There nees to be less shouting over the fence at eachother, that wasn't dialogue (not that I'd expect it of Griffin) really. I do think over all it will have educated a fair few people about quite how stupid and bigotted the BNP are, those who've not really thought about they're own xenophobia or homophobia. We'll not get rid of nazi's like Griffin and more importantly those whoa re tolerant of himand his kind who we may work alongside or know in the places where we live without information or debate, and debate/dialogue means not turning it into have a go at the fuckwit or a slanging match neither side hears the other, not that the BNP have anything valuable to say but on a personal level until someone like that gets heard and gets the feedback can the move on personally and grow.

I still don't actually know if in fact the BNP are entitled under the law to representation on a public service TV in this particular program because of the number of votes they have collected in the last electoral cycles.

You can't stop these people having free speech, but once he's been invited onto a program like this to stop him appearing would give more succour to the nazis than it would letting him appear. It could have been possible not to invite him on and I still can't really work out which is best. Grufty has come out best in terms of coherence and reasoning on this matter on here so far imo, however once the cat is out of the bag - he'd got his invite he has to be allowed to appear and we just have to hope his vile opinions and stupidity have turned a lot of people off the BNP.

As well as exposing his (perhaps former) holocaust denial I'd have like to have seen information about the membership of his party, how many are also members of neo-nazi organisations such as Combat 18, the Klan in Britain etc, why were supportes of his party seen making nazi salutes to protesters at the BNP festival that has been taking place in Derbyshire for the last few years. Also don't think enough was made of the BNPs policy of prevention of interacial marriage/relationships.

What really saddens me is that there still is really no recognition that the "race" debate is based on a complete falacy, race does not exist, it is a theoretical construct created during a period where modernism (and therefore supposedly neutral scientific methods) were being used to examine/explain the human race (that is the only race term I agree with using). The other race related contructs such as aryan, dravidian, negroid (caucasian being a subset of aryan - or is it the othe way round) etc have been discredited by science, genetic diversity and the origin of our species is way way more complex than these simplification which were done supposedly impartially and then used politically to justify all sorts of idiotic stuff, both theoretically and politically. The only interacial beings I can think of are mermaids and centaurs, oh and Grendel's Mum in the Beowulf film. Fortunately there has been more programming on telly about this recently - The incredibel human journey, and there's another progam coming soon about "race" and intelligence on C4 I believe
ratcni01
ratcni01
916 posts

Re: opinions on last night's question time
Oct 23, 2009, 11:36
I try these days to shift the focus away from badly defined terms such as race to find tou what the actual difference is that's objected to, if it's skin colour then call it such, if its religion use that word. I mean it seemed totally laughable when it came down to it that Griffins definition of what indigenous came down to was "the people that arrived here after the last ice age". If he's interested in preserving culture, or British identity then there might be some value in that. I think its because people are insecure about their identity on a personal level that they turn to the BNP or to defining themselves as Celts or whatever. No, we are products of our families, knowing your identity is great, a sense of "where I come from" valuable, but most people don't actually know their origins and thats been a sideeffect of the huge social and cultural changes that have happened in Britain and globally in the last centuries.
ratcni01
ratcni01
916 posts

Re: opinions on last night's question time
Oct 23, 2009, 12:39
Still undecided mojojojo on the "should he be let on" debate. Certainly once he was invited he shoulda been. It does lend credibility to the BNP, but them quite a few people who were unware will have been swung against the BNP cos of his awful showing. The proper BNP fans will have seen him being picked on and it'll have confirmed their prejudices
Jim Tones
Jim Tones
5142 posts

Edited Oct 23, 2009, 12:57
Re: opinions on last night's question time
Oct 23, 2009, 12:55
ratcni01 wrote:

I think its because people are insecure about their identity on a personal level that they turn to the BNP or to defining themselves as Celts or whatever. No, we are products of our families, knowing your identity is great, a sense of "where I come from" valuable, but most people don't actually know their origins and thats been a sideeffect of the huge social and cultural changes that have happened in Britain and globally in the last centuries.


Hmmm... "or to defining themselves as Celts or whatever"

Well now, speaking as someone with Welsh heritage, I'm not insecure about anything.
We certainly have a "where I come from" stance, as the history is rooted in a lot of Welsh families (cue interbred jokes) AND we wave the Welsh flag because we've been fucked-over by the 'english' government in the past with incidents like Tryweryn, a watered down (excuse the pun) display of mild ethnic cleansing!
Not to mention the 'Welsh Not' wooden block 'system'- which has never been written about much, even on the internet.
Plus, we also have to throw out the reminder that it should never happen again.
Surely, nothing wrong with that?
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