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postyesterdayman 931 posts |
Feb 22, 2008, 15:31
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Oh man, I just remembered something...I was working a part time job as a clerk at a liquor store and a kid came in, obviously 17 or 18 (the legal age in the states to buy and drink liquor and beer is 21...you can go die in the Army but you can't have a fucking beer! You can pay fucking taxes but you can't have a glass of wine! You can...well, you get it). This kid sauntered up and tried to buy some beer and a bottle of Tequila I believe with an ID that said he was 31 years old and that his name was something like Roberto Miguel Santos. This kid was as white as they come. I kicked him out of the store....he was either really stupid or really brave.....not sure which.
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Edited Feb 22, 2008, 16:33
Feb 22, 2008, 15:45
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Jane wrote: Information and real alternatives to getting smashed. Getting pissed is not funny. But getting smashed is fun for some, me included. I got three bottles of wine here for later tonight, can't wait. It feels nice. I have loads of other alternatives too (ie when I go for a walk, read etc). Tonight however I'm settling for what millions do every day with no problems at all. I mean I don't smoke but do I have the right to ever 'advise' others not to. No! I wouldn't. I think they'd find it a bit irritating, even though the whole smoking thing puzzles me. I don't dispute the problems it causes, but you can never, never tar everyone wiht the same blimmin brush just coz some folks get out of their depth on the stuff. Maybe alcohol isn't for you, good, you had the sense to figure it out - many don't. That is the problem here. I have been a drinker since about 15, and because the stuff was all around me growing up there was no mystique, so I never felt any need to impress anyone. Young folk are being ostricised more and more IMO, used to be I'd go to a pub (at 15), hide in the corner, utterly behave myself and not act like a lunatic as happens alot now. The idea of staunchly promoting alternatives is dangeroulsy close to censorship, and we all know the harm that can do. Jeez, aren't all those rumours about parts of 'the continent' having little of these problems and how theire attutde to children experiencing wine etc testament to where we might be giong wrong? EDIT: Pick uo on this if I may: **More than 70% of the teenage girls I work with who get pregnant do so because they were pissed. Hangovers, unwanted sex and unplanned pregnancies are accepted as a natural hazard of alcohol abuse. I could go on but it’s too depressing** Isn't that solely to do with lack of contraception? I've done pissed and contraception tonnes of times! Hopefully the message to these girls isn't 'don't get drunk, coz you might get pregnant' but 'if you are going to ger drunk make sure either he covers up or you have some method going down yourself'. Isn't it as counter productive as simply saying 'pregnancy is the inevitable consequnece of sex, so don't do it'? x
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handofdave 3515 posts |
Feb 22, 2008, 17:05
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That it's the fuel that fires the vast majority of problems that require police intervention or results in losses of all sorts, lives, property, respect, etc... is completely irrefutable. I recall an evening spent arguing about the blatant hypocrisies in society's asymmetric approach to drugs and alcohol with the older members of my family. They are all 'respectable' members of the establishment society. And their argument consisted entirely of the arbitrary belief that alcohol is not prohibited because it is the commonly accepted substance that the western world tolerates, nothing more. End of discussion. I think the 'War on Drugs' is merely a way for the far larger, alcohol-using majority to deny their own substance abuse by finding a 'worse' one to use as a scapegoat. The irony is that they are fully cognizant of the heavy price society pays for both legalization AND prohibition, but policy isn't usually based on science, it's based on prejudices in favor or alcohol, and against 'counterculture drugs'. The best example of how education can cut down on use (rather than the heavy-handed incarceration method) is in the big decline in tobacco use. Regulating it, stopping kids from getting started, banning it from public places, all have had a big effect. There's a conspicuous lack of public awareness advertising about the dangers of drinking, compared to anti-tobacco ads. Drunk driving ads, yes, even 'drink responsibly' added to alcoholic beverage ads. But I can't recall ever seeing an ad that says 'drinking is potentially hazardous to your health' outside of the don't-drink-and-drive ads.
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Feb 22, 2008, 21:05
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handofdave wrote: I think the 'War on Drugs' is merely a way for the far larger, alcohol-using majority to deny their own substance abuse by finding a 'worse' one to use as a scapegoat Why use the term 'abuse' Dave? If you mean those whose drinking has meant their lives have spiralled out of control, sure. But I 'use' alcohol, I don't abuse it. I probably drink way over my accepted levels but then thay chages every blimmin week anyway. I get pissed sometimes, which to me is using it in the right and proper way! I get happy, a bit dumb assed, but never, never want to hurt anyone. Now if there was something definitive in alcohol that caused that, I would be hurtung people, so it really is down to individual tolerance, you've got to accept that surely. We cannot ever penalise the majority cause of a rotten minority. I don't see the point in always 'comparing' alcohol to drug use either (which even I know isn't always 'drug abuse'!) Alot of folks are scared of drugs through conditioning /lack of exposure etc as much as anything I reckon. I would however totally clamp down on anyone whose crime involved alcohol consumption, be it driving, fighting whatever. Because of the misery their behaviour causes, and if the are repeat offenders (often the case) I would like to see the introduction of either jail or the option of voluntary 'antabuse' injections, I'm serious there. Something radical has to be done, because there are hoards out there for who alcohol is no good. I still say it's partly down to cultural ignorance too (see France and kids round the table for wine - sounds bloody sensible to me). I find it a bit mournful hardly anyone wants to speak up in favour of the old sauce these days. Now off to open one of those lovely bottles:-) x
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PMM 3155 posts |
Feb 22, 2008, 22:48
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shanshee_allures wrote: We cannot ever penalise the majority cause of a rotten minority. Actually this is something that we as a society do all the time. If you're a young male driver, you pay more because a bigger minority drive like arseholes than other sections of society. Everybody is watched by CCTV, because a small number of people are anti-social. We certainly us the excuse that drugs wreck lives as an excuse for not legalising them. shanshee_allures wrote: I would however totally clamp down on anyone whose crime involved alcohol consumption, be it driving, fighting whatever. Because of the misery their behaviour causes, and if the are repeat offenders (often the case) I would like to see the introduction of either jail or the option of voluntary 'antabuse' injections, I'm serious there. Something radical has to be done, because there are hoards out there for who alcohol is no good. I don't entirely agree with you there, Shanshee. Drink driving has reduced over the last few decades. But this is not really because of the threat of jail. It's because of a cultural change. What was once acceptable is now unacceptable. How that change came about is worth a close look. Our prisons are already stuffed to overflowing with people. If you're caught drink driving twice, then you'll be lucky to escape a jail sentence. Doing something "radical" really must mean something other than stiffer penalties and draconian clampdowns. Just my humble...
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Edited Jan 15, 2009, 14:34
Jan 15, 2009, 14:28
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IanB wrote: It's beyond social class, gender and age and the young are the least of our worries. Getting off your head with minimal consequences (at least minimal for the vast majority of revellers) is a privilege of youth so to demonise that when it is merely the most visible symptom of a nationwide issue seems bizarre espcially when self-medicating behind closed doors is something of a national pastime. Isn't that how the English have always operated at least since the Victorian era, if not earlier? You can have sex all you like, but you can't talk openly about it (especially if it's gay sex). You can smoke opium on a daily basis, as long as you don't do it in front of anybody else. You can get as ratarsed as you wish, but you can't do it in a public place. You can even go insane, as long as you maintain some semblance of social decorum. To paraphrase the title of Erin Pizzey's pioneering tome on domestic violence, scream quietly or the neighbours will hear. Sweeping problems under the carpet and hoping that they'll go away until they blow up in our faces is something this country has always excelled at.
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dave clarkson 2988 posts |
Jan 15, 2009, 17:52
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What she said! Love a drink myself but don't feel the need all the time. I too believe that whether it's alcohol, other drugs or gambling, it's in the 'usage' and self moderation which is key - not the abuse of it and the moral accountability and guilt that folks put on people who do partake. Education, recognition/awareness and guidance/support towards the minority behaviour who may fall into the 'abuse' category is what is required, not moral condescention to all. Enjoy your holy water. Thursday is a Leffe blonde beer evening for me. 8)
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Popel Vooje 5373 posts |
Jan 15, 2009, 18:13
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shanshee_allures wrote: handofdave wrote: I think the 'War on Drugs' is merely a way for the far larger, alcohol-using majority to deny their own substance abuse by finding a 'worse' one to use as a scapegoat Why use the term 'abuse' Dave? If you mean those whose drinking has meant their lives have spiralled out of control, sure. But I 'use' alcohol, I don't abuse it. I probably drink way over my accepted levels but then thay chages every blimmin week anyway. I get pissed sometimes, which to me is using it in the right and proper way! I get happy, a bit dumb assed, but never, never want to hurt anyone. Now if there was something definitive in alcohol that caused that, I would be hurtung people, so it really is down to individual tolerance, you've got to accept that surely. We cannot ever penalise the majority cause of a rotten minority. I don't see the point in always 'comparing' alcohol to drug use either (which even I know isn't always 'drug abuse'!) Alot of folks are scared of drugs through conditioning /lack of exposure etc as much as anything I reckon. I would however totally clamp down on anyone whose crime involved alcohol consumption, be it driving, fighting whatever. Because of the misery their behaviour causes, and if the are repeat offenders (often the case) I would like to see the introduction of either jail or the option of voluntary 'antabuse' injections, I'm serious there. Something radical has to be done, because there are hoards out there for who alcohol is no good. I still say it's partly down to cultural ignorance too (see France and kids round the table for wine - sounds bloody sensible to me). I find it a bit mournful hardly anyone wants to speak up in favour of the old sauce these days. Now off to open one of those lovely bottles:-) x Indeed - in cases of allegedly alcohol-fulled violence, I believe that booze merely brings buried feelings of aggression to the surface, rather than being the direct cause of them. The sad truth is that if drinking were prohibited altogether, people with latent tendancies towards violent, desctructive behaviour would most likely find another, equally destructive, outlet for these tendancies. I'm in favour of increasing public spending on educating people about the dangers of alcohol abuse, as advocated above by Jane. However, I do have a problem with the "all or nothing" model advocated by organisations like Alcoholics Anonymous, and their apparent belief that there is no workable middle ground between addiction and total abstinence (not to mention their ridiculously outmoded presupposition that their clients have to believe in a power higher than themselves in order to beat their condition - in other words, if you're an atheist, you're beyond help). To me this is an unhelpful outlook which leads alcoholics to relapse and accept that they'll never be able to conquer their addiction Moreover, I know people who've both worked with alkies and been alkies themselves who've expressed serious doubts about the validity of this approach. Like you say, the vast majority of people who drink heavily don't directly harm anyone else in the process, and I'll happily speak up in favour of recrteational boozing even though I've been a fairly major binge-drinker myself in the past.
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shanshee_allures 2563 posts |
Jan 15, 2009, 18:23
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I remember as a 15 year old sneaking intoa pub, sending my older cousin to the bar and me sitting in the corner quiet as a mouse shitting it incase I got caught. I'd then sneak out to pub and go home quiet as a mouse for the same reason. It added to me 'behaving myself'. Did the barman see me? Perhaps. But what good would singling me out have done? I think something's happened in cracking down on this and that and creating a problem through the old 'forbidden fruit' bit, somehow. Silly patronising poster campaigns etc. It's had a disastrous consequence. Nowadays there is an element of drinking out of defiance, which I never did, I did it because I was ready to. I wasn't tied to some pack mentality like happnes now. We've castigated our yoof and now they're back with avengence, some of them. x
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Shelby Mustang 605 posts |
Jan 15, 2009, 22:34
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ban it all. let's make this island a fucking dry county for one year and see the changes in overall production and the more positive outlook we all would have getting up on monday mornings for instance. and young 'uns for one year without booze to contaminate them might just open their eyes and see the possibilities in life rather than when they can get down the local shop for some white lightning and get into a fight and dads getting home beating their kids up cos they're full of whisky of a saturday night and mums feeling suicidal and left alone all day with a bottle of vodka or a bottle of red and the marriages that just collapse in ruins because of alcohol related screaming and shouting and crying and storming out and all the people that are killed on the roads by pissed up cunts that are too selfish to get a fucking taxi home and the violence in our city centres on saturday night after closing. the wreathes just keep mounting up outside every towns civic centre and all the surrounding bus stops and all the broke fucking people drinking themselves further and further into debt drinking beer in pubs that sometimes have near a sixty percent mark up and all the cool rockstars with their jax and cokes and their heroin habits........................................................perpetuating the ice cool image of a man elegantly wasted and worldly wise. i stepped out of the loop and this is the first time i've told anyone about what i've seen for myself over the last two and a half years of being a clean headed righteous fucker. and i'm not telling no fucking person here there or anywhere how to live their lives but i can assure you ... i can guarantee you that stopping drinking is by far the greatest, most wise thing you'll ever do bar nothing. my life now is like a fucking executive jet ride of grown up mature feelings and righteous ambition for all things good to happen to my family and mates. and i know that at any time day or night i'm fucking on it if i need to be, i'm there for whoever needs me. i'm reliable. for the first time ever in my forty three years i'm reliable and do you know what? boring and straight as that sounds IT FEELS FUCKING GREAT XXXXXXXX sermon over
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