embryonomore
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My two (possibly ignorant) cents...
Feb 07, 2006, 12:59
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From what I heard, and this may be completely wrong, but Muslims do not allow any illustration or visual depiction of Allah. Is that correct?
Obviously, you think of 'God' and think of some painting of generic Christian type grey haired dude with a beard, but Islam does not have such things.
As such, in the interests of tolerance and respect to all (including Muslims within each country that printed the cartoons) the cartoons should not have been printed.
Ultimately, the only message conveyed by the use of the cartoons is that of ignorance. You have the right to consider all religions a bunch of hogwash, but surely all religious followers, fanatical or otherwise, have the right for their beliefs.
Printing those cartoons is to me the same as walking into a Hindu temple with shoes on. It makes me uncomfortable and I know it is deliberately disrespectful.
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morfe
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Re: My two (possibly ignorant) cents...
Feb 07, 2006, 13:32
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It is deliberately disrespectful, I agree. Although that is not the be all and end all of course. All newpapers are arguably disrespectful. The problem I find is the large gulf between the 'respect' expected by the ultra-conservative (rabid 'wingers or tribal/fundie Muslims) and the healthy disrespect that is necessary to allow democratic freedoms.
I measure the difference this way:
If someone insults my wife, I might want to hurt them, I might want to turn the other cheek, who knows on the day. But what I won't want to do is hurt their neighbours ot their family or their neighbouring country.
"They want to know whether Muslims are extremists or not. Death to them and to their newspapers,"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm
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Cleira
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Re: My two (possibly ignorant) cents...
Feb 07, 2006, 13:39
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Isn't it forbiddden for Christains to make a likeness of their god also? Yet we have all seen plenty of these around in various forms. In fact, the Danish paper in question had also published cartoons of a similarly offensive type based on Christianity.
You can tell people of your religion what to do (if that is how you want to run your religion) but you cant expect the rest of the world to follow your made up rules.
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Leonard
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Re: My two (possibly ignorant) cents...
Feb 07, 2006, 14:03
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Thats a damn good question about images and representations of Christ/God, Arguably yep, they can't, and theres a commandment for it. However, its odd, as Christ threw out most of the Talmud and replaced the commandments with 'love one another' its hard to say. However, obviously, the orthodox church that put the bible together around 2-3AD is a huge fan of the 'graven image', preferably in gold.
My own thoughts on the cartoons are that they have no satirical value at all, and remind me of those old horrible propoganda cartoons of jewish people eating christian babies (tsarist era russian IIRC, then spread to europe). Sure there are a helluva lot of anti-semitic cartoons around in middle east papers today, however there are a valid anti Israel cartoons made that just get simply branded anti-semitic.
As it goes with the maturity argument, I don't think christianity is that mature, there are fundies happy to kill doctors that perform abortions still around. But yep, they aren't going to scream murder the heretic if someone knocks out a pen sketch of Christ shagging Mary Magdalene or in a homoerotic group session with his disciples. They will however get very upptiy and shouty. The comparison to the inquisition, and also to the crusades is a damn important one though. During those times it's important to note that most people were reacting the same way we are as in 'WTF!? Settle down you mad bastards FFS!' However as it was politic for a lot of Christian countries, and the orthodox church was keen for a bit of heretic bashing to increase it's power base and wealth a minority performed some dispicable and anti christian activity. Thankfully, the established muslim faith isn't going to support the loonies, however it is worrying that some nations may start to as it fits their own agenda.
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morfe
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the right to belief
Feb 07, 2006, 14:09
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"You have the right to consider all religions a bunch of hogwash, but surely all religious followers, fanatical or otherwise, have the right for their beliefs."
Of course. Unless it harms others of course, then that 'right' is severely compromised by self-evident events?
These self-evident events since the 'cartoon' are, in my opinion more evidence of a sick desire for some kind of self-fulfilling 'biblical' war.
As ever, the racial/religious stereotypes are pushing ahead in the propaganda race.
Now we've mostly stopped drawing those evil bearded Jews as being bearded and evil, now we have those evil bearded 'muslims' looking bearded and evil. One is now considered offensive in Denmark, and one is not?
http://abusinan.blogspot.com/2006/02/it-seems-that-some-within-blogging.html
Many right wingers are (still) crying out that the burden of proof for the 'Religion Of Peace' is on the 'moderate' muslims to show Islam to be 'not evil' . But wouldn't that be the same as my having to prove I wasn't an evil Westerner?
I think this religion stuff to be a very stinky thing at the moment. As stinky as Nationalism. Pooooeee (waves hand in air)
And on and on...
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morfe
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Re: My two (possibly ignorant) cents...
Feb 07, 2006, 14:10
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"My own thoughts on the cartoons are that they have no satirical value at all, and remind me of those old horrible propoganda cartoons of jewish people eating christian babies"
Agreed, see below :-)
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Moon Cat
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Re: Cartoon war
Feb 07, 2006, 16:40
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Personally I'm heartily sick of religious nutjobs and fundementalists of ANY stripe crowing all over the news and threatening Holy War at the drop of a hat (turban, mitre, halo whatever).
P'raps some of us could have could have a protest of our own along the lines of
"Humanists against Religious nutjobs spoiling it for the rest of us"
"Psychedelic rationalists against holy hate mongers, crusaders and jihadists gobshiting on and on"
"It's ALL UTTER BOLLOCKS and can we have our planet back please - The rest of us want to play nicely thank you"
GAH!
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Vybik Jon
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Re: My two (possibly ignorant) cents...
Feb 07, 2006, 16:48
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"From what I heard, and this may be completely wrong, but Muslims do not allow any illustration or visual depiction of Allah. Is that correct?"
Possibly, but the argument is about the cartoons being depictions of the the prophet Mohammed. Apparently that is banned.
It wouldn't surprise me if depictions of Allah were also banned.
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Rolling Ronnie
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Re: Cartoon war
Feb 07, 2006, 16:57
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You have my vote Moon Cat
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embryonomore
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Re: My two (possibly ignorant) cents...
Feb 07, 2006, 17:00
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I did preface my post with the words 'possibly ignorant' : )
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