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tiompan 5758 posts |
Jan 25, 2017, 23:13
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Does Pinker mention Lakoff and Johnson ? They have a left /right binary suggestion for metaphorical thinking that's similar , ( maybe it's just Lakoff ).
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tjj 3606 posts |
Edited Jan 26, 2017, 08:13
Jan 25, 2017, 23:23
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I found this a very interesting read Cian, even though I am not familiar with the work of Steven Pinker. It seems he is saying that people with the similar world views i.e. left = non-violence/peace and right = aggression/force have superimposed those views onto prehistory. What was going on at the Tomb of the Eagles I wonder ... http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/2011/03/16/tomb-of-the-eagles-remains-paint-a-darker-picture-of-neolithic-orkney/ There must have been violent individuals who beat their women and children for no better reason than they could - just as there are today. That doesn't answer the enigma of why the skulls found in the Tomb of the Eagles indicate they had all suffered violence either in death or in life before they died. Perhaps they were slaves/captives whose lives meant little to their captors. Edit: Thinking about it, the slaves theory wouldn't sit with the apparent importance of the burial site so still a puzzle!!
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Edited Jan 26, 2017, 07:47
Jan 25, 2017, 23:44
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tiompan wrote: Is Pomo losing it's grip ?. I sincerely hope so. (pun intended) http://www.metamodernism.com/2015/01/12/metamodernism-a-brief-introduction/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sincerity
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Monganaut 2380 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 08:47
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I imagine Cancer was more prevalent than the discovery record would show. I heard a show on Radio 4 some years ago discussing cancer in African tribal peoples, and even thought hey were essentially following a healthy hunter/gatherer lifestyle, the incidence of the disease was higher than you'd expect. The main culprit recognised in the programme was wood smoke/fires. Much like diabetes, I'm sure the only obvious signs of the disease was that someone was getting sick, and there appeared to be no reason. If you've ever read 'Cider With Rosie', there's a heartbreaking chapter where one of Laurie Lee's sisters essentially wastes away whilst he's ill in bed, which I think retrospectively has been recognised as un-diagnosed diabetes.
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 09:45
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The evidence of trauma from " tombs " is much greater than TOtE . Here's a selection of finds mainly from "tombs" , everyday disposal of bodies is less likely to be discovered . At Talheim in SW Germany a mass of human bones were found in a pit dating from 5000BC 16 children and 18 adults , no infants .Over half had violent head traumas consistent with blows from an axe . Ascott-Under –Wychwood : Robust male in southern chamber with arrowhead in back another adult had an arrowhead beneath ribs . Wayland’s Smithy :3 leaf shaped arrow heads found among bones in deposit ,one bone had a tip embedded . Penywyrlod .Tip of arrowhead in rib of young adult in Long Cairn . Tulloch of Assery B :lozenge shaped arrowhead in lower thoracic vertebrae in main burial deposit . Tulloch of Assery A :Adolescent male with blow to skull whether pre or post mortem is not known . Cranborne chase .Pitt Rivers found a male skeleton with with a leaf shaped arrowhead below the ribs and at it’s feet the skeleton of a child . Fengate :Iron Age site near Peterborough a burial with an adult male with LSA between 8th and 9th ribs and woman and two children were buried with him . Poulnabrone :Stone projectile point in adult hip also interred two other individuals with healed skull fracture wounds . West Kennet :LSA was found in the region of a man’s throat . Crichel Down :barrow 13 An LSA next to the ribs of skeleton on a bed of flints . Harborough Rocks :Chambered cairn with arrowheads with snapped tips and 16 skeletons . Five Wells cairn : Arrowhead with snapped tip and 12 skeletons . Belas Knap : Adolescent with massive injury to skull , a female may also been from a blow to the skull . Coldrum :A probable adult female with injury to the front of the skull , two fine cut marks by the ear hole as there are no other cut marks on the skull it is possible the ear had been cut off . Dinnington; Long barrow Yorkshire female skull with possible axe blow Boles Barrow :Several skulls displayed lethal injuries . Duggleby Howe :the skull of a young male at the feet of an old man skull has large hole . Windmill Hill : Burl believed the skulls in the ditches could have been trophies . Bridlington :The partially cremated remains of a skull with atlas vertebrae attached also in the pit was a Neolithic axe . Boles Barrow :A skull with attached neck vertebrae cut in two Chute 1 oval barrow :group of skulls arranged in a circle one with three vertebrae attached . Staines Causewayed Enclosure :two skulls in outer ditch one had healed wounds was killed later by blows to the head and decapitated . Glen Quicken :Cist under a cairn contained a skeleton whose arm had almost been severed by a greenstone axe , a fragment of which was still stuck in the bone . Amesbury 35-45 year old male buried between 2400-2200BC grave goods include flint tools wrist guards 15 BTA 5 beakers , three copper daggers , four boar tusks , a bone pin ,two gold basket earrings or hair tresses and a cushion stone ,which was almost certainly used for making metal objects ,as a child he had lived near the Alps .A burial5m away contained the skeleton of a man 20-25 who also had the gold earrings/tresses but also an unusual bone in his instep same as the Amesbury archer so it’s likely they were related ..Roger mercer believes the archery equipment signifies a hunting ritual carried out by an elite within Beaker society .The young Auroch burials on Boscombe Down may have been part of this ritual and a pit with 6 BTA in an Auroch’s ribs at Heathrow terminal 4 .Just as farming was becoming ever more important there is a rise in finds of archery equipment .It’s suggested this is due to the existence of a high status male hunter elite . Fordington barrow :Dorset had skeleton dated 2350 bc with a probable parry fracture to his forearm and BTA on his hip Chilbolton :Hampshire Younger of two men (20-30 ) was buried in a mortuary chamber with a rich array of grave goods including gold hair tresses/earrings had parry fracture and older man had fractures to his rib cage . Barnak :Had 22 burials clustered around the primary burial Beaker burial , three of the satellite burials contained individuals with skeletal trauma . Pyecombe :barrow Sussex a male with healed fractures to collar bone and forearm ,and woman displaying axe wound to their skull Sarn –Y-Bryn –Caled :In centre of the timber circle two cremations with 4 BTA two of which were missing their tips they had also turned intense white in the pyre heat .The date 2400-2300bc Suggests the individual lost their life in the beaker period but this does not tally with the arrowheads which were of the Conygar type. Grandtully Possible EBA burial in cremation cemetery .5 Conygar arrowheads were found with the cremation of a young adult in a pit . Twr Gwyn Mawr :two BTA were found in a cremation burial under cairn A Ballymacaldrack :probable female cremation with EBA collared Urn with rough BTA with broken tip . Tormarton : SW Cotswolds . Three young males , the eldest had been stabbed in the back at lest once with a spear , the younger man had been speared in the pelvis with the bronze tip still in the bone another spearhead had done the same this time in his spine the date was 1315 -1045 BC there was also a hole in the head probably from a spear .A follow up excavation found even more bone under slabs . Queenford farm near Dorchester on Thames a human skeleton with a snapped spear in the pelvis 1260-990 BC . Drumman Moor Lake in Co Armagh socketed dagger of LBA embedded in a skull. A male skull 1040-810 BC found in association with a burnt mound near River Soar Leics along with a decapitated horse skull and butchered bones of cattle and aurochs the dated skull had unhealed cut marks on the atlas vertebrae which may indicate that he had been killed by being beheaded .
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 10:58
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Monganaut wrote: I imagine Cancer was more prevalent than the discovery record would show. I heard a show on Radio 4 some years ago discussing cancer in African tribal peoples, and even thought hey were essentially following a healthy hunter/gatherer lifestyle, the incidence of the disease was higher than you'd expect. The main culprit recognised in the programme was wood smoke/fires. Much like diabetes, I'm sure the only obvious signs of the disease was that someone was getting sick, and there appeared to be no reason. If you've ever read 'Cider With Rosie', there's a heartbreaking chapter where one of Laurie Lee's sisters essentially wastes away whilst he's ill in bed, which I think retrospectively has been recognised as un-diagnosed diabetes. You may well be right re the records. I heard a cancer specialist say once on TV that cancer was an 'alien' disease and unlike anything that one would 'normally' expect to still see today, suggesting it was very old and would normally have been resolved by now. He didn't mean an alien as in little green men of course but the nature of it. If it was indeed prevalent in ancient times but possibly came under control but lying dormant, we could now be seeing a resurgence of it in a somewhat different form and why it has not been zapped permanently by now.
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CianMcLiam 1067 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 11:18
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tiompan wrote: Does Pinker mention Lakoff and Johnson ? They have a left /right binary suggestion for metaphorical thinking that's similar , ( maybe it's just Lakoff ). Yeah he does mention Lakoff, but they diverge a lot on the subject of the metaphorical basis of language and thought. They had a bit of a blazing row about it online.
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CianMcLiam 1067 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 11:21
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tjj wrote: I found this a very interesting read Cian, even though I am not familiar with the work of Steven Pinker. It seems he is saying that people with the similar world views i.e. left = non-violence/peace and right = aggression/force have superimposed those views onto prehistory. What was going on at the Tomb of the Eagles I wonder ... http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/2011/03/16/tomb-of-the-eagles-remains-paint-a-darker-picture-of-neolithic-orkney/ There must have been violent individuals who beat their women and children for no better reason than they could - just as there are today. That doesn't answer the enigma of why the skulls found in the Tomb of the Eagles indicate they had all suffered violence either in death or in life before they died. Perhaps they were slaves/captives whose lives meant little to their captors. Edit: Thinking about it, the slaves theory wouldn't sit with the apparent importance of the burial site so still a puzzle!! Well Tiompan has provided a pretty extensive list of injuries known in the record from tombs, it's also worth noting that during the conquest of North America doctors surveying the casualties estimated that only one in three arrow shot wounds left visible marking on actual bones, so our estimates are likely very much lower than actual occurrence of violent death.
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 11:34
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CianMcLiam wrote: tiompan wrote: Does Pinker mention Lakoff and Johnson ? They have a left /right binary suggestion for metaphorical thinking that's similar , ( maybe it's just Lakoff ). Yeah he does mention Lakoff, but they diverge a lot on the subject of the metaphorical basis of language and thought. They had a bit of a blazing row about it online. I was only aware of the fall out from a review of "On Freedom" (right title ?), not the online stuff . The metaphorical thinking was good fun , worth a chapter or two dunno about a book .
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 11:47
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CianMcLiam wrote: tjj wrote: I found this a very interesting read Cian, even though I am not familiar with the work of Steven Pinker. It seems he is saying that people with the similar world views i.e. left = non-violence/peace and right = aggression/force have superimposed those views onto prehistory. What was going on at the Tomb of the Eagles I wonder ... http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/2011/03/16/tomb-of-the-eagles-remains-paint-a-darker-picture-of-neolithic-orkney/ There must have been violent individuals who beat their women and children for no better reason than they could - just as there are today. That doesn't answer the enigma of why the skulls found in the Tomb of the Eagles indicate they had all suffered violence either in death or in life before they died. Perhaps they were slaves/captives whose lives meant little to their captors. Edit: Thinking about it, the slaves theory wouldn't sit with the apparent importance of the burial site so still a puzzle!! Well Tiompan has provided a pretty extensive list of injuries known in the record from tombs, it's also worth noting that during the conquest of North America doctors surveying the casualties estimated that only one in three arrow shot wounds left visible marking on actual bones, so our estimates are likely very much lower than actual occurrence of violent death. The evidence has to be a small percentage , nearly all the finds were associated with a building ,without that as the focus they would never have been known about ,even then the trauma often went unnoticed or mentioned until examined much later . Entire skeletons are incredibly rare , so much of the potential evidence for violence is missing to begin with . And as you suggest trauma is not necessarily to be expected in cases of murder/sacrifice , and first you have to find the remains .
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