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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 12:01
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tiompan wrote: Windmill Hill : Burl believed the skulls in the ditches could have been trophies Never read this. I'd be interested to know why he thought that. Source?
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tjj 3606 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 12:06
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Thanks very much for your comprehensive answer Tiompan - which I have read. In some ways it answers Sanctuary's original question about cancer. I imagine it would have been rare for anyone, especially men, to live long enough to develop it. And women were routinely dying in childbirth until comparatively recently. The Amesbury Archer lived with a traumatic injury but did he actually die a violent death? And also ... (I should know) what does BTA stand for - guessing, bronze tipped arrowhead?
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tiompan 5758 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 12:09
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Evergreen Dazed wrote: tiompan wrote: Is Pomo losing it's grip ?. I sincerely hope so. (pun intended) http://www.metamodernism.com/2015/01/12/metamodernism-a-brief-introduction/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sincerity In Franzen's "The Corrections " Chip sells his collection of critical theory books for a small fraction of their original cost , the money going on a fancy salmon to impress his girl friend . Maybe starting soon , if it didn't start some time ago the pomo texts will start to fill up the second hand bookshops and the dosh spent on a nice bit of scran . Can't think of better use . As for it's impact on archaeology , millions of student /lecturer hours spent attempting to understand it and a similar amount attempting to apply it unsuccessfully to the discipline. Then we have to wade through the resulting verbiage to discover , nothing .
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tjj 3606 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 12:15
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Monganaut wrote: I imagine Cancer was more prevalent than the discovery record would show. I heard a show on Radio 4 some years ago discussing cancer in African tribal peoples, and even thought hey were essentially following a healthy hunter/gatherer lifestyle, the incidence of the disease was higher than you'd expect. The main culprit recognised in the programme was wood smoke/fires. Much like diabetes, I'm sure the only obvious signs of the disease was that someone was getting sick, and there appeared to be no reason. If you've ever read 'Cider With Rosie', there's a heartbreaking chapter where one of Laurie Lee's sisters essentially wastes away whilst he's ill in bed, which I think retrospectively has been recognised as un-diagnosed diabetes. An interesting point about wood smoke - which must have been there all the time. Wouldn't have thought diabetes would have been such an issue back in the neolithic - although if Type I diabetes existed it would of course just be another unexplained death.
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 12:26
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tiompan wrote: Evergreen Dazed wrote: tiompan wrote: Is Pomo losing it's grip ?. I sincerely hope so. (pun intended) http://www.metamodernism.com/2015/01/12/metamodernism-a-brief-introduction/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sincerity In Franzen's "The Corrections " Chip sells his collection of critical theory books for a small fraction of their original cost , the money going on a fancy salmon to impress his girl friend . Maybe starting soon , if it didn't start some time ago the pomo texts will start to fill up the second hand bookshops and the dosh spent on a nice bit of scran . Can't think of better use . As for it's impact on archaeology , millions of student /lecturer hours spent attempting to understand it and a similar amount attempting to apply it unsuccessfully to the discipline. Then we have to wade through the resulting verbiage to discover , nothing . Correct me if i'm facing in the wrong direction (and I do mean that) but I always imagined it was not so much directly applying postmodern thought to archaeology, as an explosion of subjectivity in light of all aspects of postmodern society? Archaeology almost taken along in the flow, if you like. Is discovering 'nothing' a fair thing to say?
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Edited Jan 26, 2017, 13:24
Jan 26, 2017, 12:42
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Evergreen Dazed wrote: tiompan wrote: Evergreen Dazed wrote: tiompan wrote: Is Pomo losing it's grip ?. I sincerely hope so. (pun intended) http://www.metamodernism.com/2015/01/12/metamodernism-a-brief-introduction/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Sincerity In Franzen's "The Corrections " Chip sells his collection of critical theory books for a small fraction of their original cost , the money going on a fancy salmon to impress his girl friend . Maybe starting soon , if it didn't start some time ago the pomo texts will start to fill up the second hand bookshops and the dosh spent on a nice bit of scran . Can't think of better use . As for it's impact on archaeology , millions of student /lecturer hours spent attempting to understand it and a similar amount attempting to apply it unsuccessfully to the discipline. Then we have to wade through the resulting verbiage to discover , nothing . Correct me if i'm facing in the wrong direction (and I do mean that) but I always imagined it was not so much directly applying postmodern thought to archaeology, as an explosion of subjectivity in light of all aspects of postmodern society? Archaeology almost taken along in the flow, if you like. Is discovering 'nothing' a fair thing to say? Are you saying that subjectivity precludes the finding of truths? I can see that, but would ask how better 'truths' are arrived at? Without adopting a PP approach are we not in danger of finding lots, but saying very little? Isn't it all then best just left in the ground?
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Monganaut 2380 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 13:25
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Thinking out loud here, but I'm guessing trauma injuries/deaths, and illnesses like cancer etc... would have been massively outnumbered (death wise) from infections from quite minor injuries or traumas in soft tissue. Just think of the amount of deaths pre antibiotics, many from quite minor or insignificant injuries if considered in today's terms with the modern treatments we have. Other deaths would not show up in bone records simply because soft tissue rarely survives. I myself would have been dead at 15 but for modern medicine from a twisted (malrotated) bowel.
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Evergreen Dazed 1881 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 13:34
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Monganaut wrote: Thinking out loud here, but I'm guessing trauma injuries/deaths, and illnesses like cancer etc... would have been massively outnumbered (death wise) from infections from quite minor injuries or traumas in soft tissue. Just think of the amount of deaths pre antibiotics, many from quite minor or insignificant injuries if considered in today's terms with the modern treatments we have. Other deaths would not show up in bone records simply because soft tissue rarely survives. I myself would have been dead at 15 but for modern medicine from a twisted (malrotated) bowel. That's interesting, re infection my immediate thought would be a more robust, or better suited?, immune system must have been necessary. I don't know much about the speed or type of change in th body over generations, and environments, but it'd be interesting to know more.
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Sanctuary 4670 posts |
Jan 26, 2017, 13:35
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tiompan wrote: CianMcLiam wrote: tjj wrote: I found this a very interesting read Cian, even though I am not familiar with the work of Steven Pinker. It seems he is saying that people with the similar world views i.e. left = non-violence/peace and right = aggression/force have superimposed those views onto prehistory. What was going on at the Tomb of the Eagles I wonder ... http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/2011/03/16/tomb-of-the-eagles-remains-paint-a-darker-picture-of-neolithic-orkney/ There must have been violent individuals who beat their women and children for no better reason than they could - just as there are today. That doesn't answer the enigma of why the skulls found in the Tomb of the Eagles indicate they had all suffered violence either in death or in life before they died. Perhaps they were slaves/captives whose lives meant little to their captors. Edit: Thinking about it, the slaves theory wouldn't sit with the apparent importance of the burial site so still a puzzle!! Well Tiompan has provided a pretty extensive list of injuries known in the record from tombs, it's also worth noting that during the conquest of North America doctors surveying the casualties estimated that only one in three arrow shot wounds left visible marking on actual bones, so our estimates are likely very much lower than actual occurrence of violent death. The evidence has to be a small percentage , nearly all the finds were associated with a building ,without that as the focus they would never have been known about ,even then the trauma often went unnoticed or mentioned until examined much later . Entire skeletons are incredibly rare , so much of the potential evidence for violence is missing to begin with . And as you suggest trauma is not necessarily to be expected in cases of murder/sacrifice , and first you have to find the remains . I'm inclined to agree with you there Cian, the numbers are small when looking at the big picture.
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Monganaut 2380 posts |
Edited Jan 26, 2017, 15:25
Jan 26, 2017, 15:17
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No doubt we would have been bit better suited to fight off minor infections than we are these days. Though I'm willing to bet after a hard Winter, when not at the top of their game, more than a few would have succumb to fairly minor illnesses such a bronchitis or flu, let alone any open injuries. Speculation, but maybe those societies followed a similar pattern to the older practices of Australian Aborigines, whereas those old, infirm or sick took themselves off to die, so as not to be a burden on the rest off the group. Contrary to that, I've also read that evidence has been found (forget where/when) that quite sick and badly physically disabled people were well looked after in the Neolithic/Bronze Age, evidence being that the skeletal remains showed they liver longer than could have been expected with the physical ailments they had. Diverting from the topic somewhat, I remember reading a George Ewart Evans book (forget which, he was a great champion of/ pioneer in 'aural history') where he was speaking to farm workers out in the fens who when given piped water in their homes still preferred to drink the 'ditch water', as the 'tap' water tasted funny. I don't think many of us (modern farming pollution aside) would last long doing that these days.
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