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Cancer in the Neolithic?
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Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Cancer in the Neolithic?
Jan 25, 2017, 11:46
Came across this which is interesting and quite informative. There are other papers about on the subject.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3956457/
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Cancer in the Neolithic?
Jan 25, 2017, 12:41
Of course . Why not ?

It may not have been as common as a couple of centuries ago or today , for the obvious reasons , age of death being younger , recognition , avoidance of some of the contemporary environmental factors etc . But it has been discovered much earlier than the example linked and even earlier in the neolithic and also much earlier than that e.g. The Neandethal cancer found at Krapina is at least 100,000 YA .The genetic propensity was around a long time ago .
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Cancer in the Neolithic?
Jan 25, 2017, 13:54
tiompan wrote:
Of course . Why not ?

It may not have been as common as a couple of centuries ago or today , for the obvious reasons , age of death being younger , recognition , avoidance of some of the contemporary environmental factors etc . But it has been discovered much earlier than the example linked and even earlier in the neolithic and also much earlier than that e.g. The Neandethal cancer found at Krapina is at least 100,000 YA .The genetic propensity was around a long time ago .


Indeed...

The question mark was to see if there was likely to be an interest in the thread as I don't believe this has been brought up before.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Cancer in the Neolithic?
Jan 25, 2017, 14:02
What tends to be bypassed is the level of interpersonal violence in Mesolithic but particularly the Neolithic up to what seems to be the more acceptable IA.

The reasons why it doesn't get mentioned too often might be interesting .
Evergreen Dazed
1881 posts

Re: Cancer in the Neolithic?
Jan 25, 2017, 17:26
tiompan wrote:

The reasons why it doesn't get mentioned too often might be interesting .


Do you mean because of the shattering of an illusion of a golden age, or do you mean there was a bias towards a particular sex or age-group that perhaps we might find very unpleasant to imagine?

There is a book by rick schulting, I'd like to get a copy.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Cancer in the Neolithic?
Jan 25, 2017, 18:17
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
tiompan wrote:

The reasons why it doesn't get mentioned too often might be interesting .


Do you mean because of the shattering of an illusion of a golden age, or do you mean there was a bias towards a particular sex or age-group that perhaps we might find very unpleasant to imagine?

There is a book by rick schulting, I'd like to get a copy.


I don't know why it gets ignored /glossed over .
Possibly both reasons , for some , certainly the latter , maybe there is a feeling that only johnnie foreigner behaved like that .

I haven't read the Schulting book , lots of papers (written with others ) over the years, which have transformed our understanding of the chronology the period and the condition of crania .
Sanctuary
Sanctuary
4670 posts

Re: Cancer in the Neolithic?
Jan 25, 2017, 18:42
tiompan wrote:
Of course . Why not ?

It may not have been as common as a couple of centuries ago or today , for the obvious reasons , age of death being younger , recognition , avoidance of some of the contemporary environmental factors etc . But it has been discovered much earlier than the example linked and even earlier in the neolithic and also much earlier than that e.g. The Neandethal cancer found at Krapina is at least 100,000 YA .The genetic propensity was around a long time ago .


Was wondering what they may have used as a 'cure' in those days other than our friend the shaman and was it any good.
Berries came to mind for some reason and when I checked out the possibilities this popped up, albeit in Oz and much more recent!

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/08/cancer-tumours-destroyed-by-berry-queensland-rainforest
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Cancer in the Neolithic?
Jan 25, 2017, 19:10
Sanctuary wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Of course . Why not ?

It may not have been as common as a couple of centuries ago or today , for the obvious reasons , age of death being younger , recognition , avoidance of some of the contemporary environmental factors etc . But it has been discovered much earlier than the example linked and even earlier in the neolithic and also much earlier than that e.g. The Neandethal cancer found at Krapina is at least 100,000 YA .The genetic propensity was around a long time ago .


Was wondering what they may have used as a 'cure' in those days other than our friend the shaman and was it any good.
Berries came to mind for some reason and when I checked out the possibilities this popped up, albeit in Oz and much more recent!

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/oct/08/cancer-tumours-destroyed-by-berry-queensland-rainforest


Maybe the Paleolithic diet was recommended . That's what the old folks did .

Even recognising material as being a "cure" would be difficult never mind the problem of it likely being organic and not surviving .
CianMcLiam
CianMcLiam
1067 posts

Re: Cancer in the Neolithic?
Jan 25, 2017, 22:15
Steven Pinker has an interesting theory in a couple of his books, particularly 'The Blank Slate'. His claim is that people in the humanities (including archaeology but in particular anthropology) tend to be more left/liberal and are slow to recognise or even flat out deny that prehistory was violent and chaotic. He cites instances of where funding for excavations or publications were threatened unless defensive features or evidence of conflict were re-interpreted as ritual or more non-descript features.

According to his theory, people on the left and on the right have two very different origin stories. The right/conservatives generally subscribe to what he calls the 'Tragic Vision', people are, and always have been, born with flaws and selfish motives that society has to counter with strict traditions, strong institutions and socialisation that values restraint and public duty.

The left/liberals have a different origin story, which he calls the 'Utopian Vision'. According to this view people are naturally born good and selfless, it is modern society and the inequalities of civilisation that are the cause of violence and social problems. Traditions, institutions and religions are actually the problem, not the solution.

Obviously, if Pinker is right, progressives that lean left will be slow to accept that violence could be as old as the most simple human groups. It doesn't fit with the story of violence and social problems arriving only after inequality, organised religions and exploitation become rigid and inescapable.

I think maybe as post-modern thought has seeped in to the general consciousness this is beginning to be less relevant in actually interpreting the past, if society can take any form and patterns of development or theories of evolving cultures are rejected outright then it matters less what was actually going on in the past.
tiompan
tiompan
5758 posts

Re: Cancer in the Neolithic?
Jan 25, 2017, 23:05
CianMcLiam wrote:
Steven Pinker has an interesting theory in a couple of his books, particularly 'The Blank Slate'. His claim is that people in the humanities (including archaeology but in particular anthropology) tend to be more left/liberal and are slow to recognise or even flat out deny that prehistory was violent and chaotic. He cites instances of where funding for excavations or publications were threatened unless defensive features or evidence of conflict were re-interpreted as ritual or more non-descript features.

According to his theory, people on the left and on the right have two very different origin stories. The right/conservatives generally subscribe to what he calls the 'Tragic Vision', people are, and always have been, born with flaws and selfish motives that society has to counter with strict traditions, strong institutions and socialisation that values restraint and public duty.

The left/liberals have a different origin story, which he calls the 'Utopian Vision'. According to this view people are naturally born good and selfless, it is modern society and the inequalities of civilisation that are the cause of violence and social problems. Traditions, institutions and religions are actually the problem, not the solution.

Obviously, if Pinker is right, progressives that lean left will be slow to accept that violence could be as old as the most simple human groups. It doesn't fit with the story of violence and social problems arriving only after inequality, organised religions and exploitation become rigid and inescapable.

I think maybe as post-modern thought has seeped in to the general consciousness this is beginning to be less relevant in actually interpreting the past, if society can take any form and patterns of development or theories of evolving cultures are rejected outright then it matters less what was actually going on in the past.


Rousseau has a lot to answer for .

The influence of Marxism on one of our greatest archaeologists , Childe , still impacts today . Even his terminology for the period was telling , " Neolithic revolution " . Foragers had to be egalitarian with no hierarchies but interpersonal violence was conveniently ignored , admittedly the evidence was scant but the wishful thinking was still there .

Is Pomo losing it's grip ? We might be past the hey day of Foucault and and even Derrida in the bibliographies but Bourdieu and Lefebvre are hanging in there .
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